Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Yes. That's why I said:
That aside, I was made clean upon my Baptism. That is what it is for, for removing sin and for giving the gift of the Holy Spirit.
How old were you when you were baptized? You talking about when you were an infant? I thought you had already decided that a new born is not a sinner. So now are you saying you were baptized to remove your sin?
All those born after Adam and Eve carried Original Sin with them. This is different from personal sins, sins that you actually commit. When one is born he is unclean and unworthy to be in the Presence of God.
(When I was arguing earlier, I was talking only of personal sins, since the verse in question said "all have sinned.")
So, yes. when I was baptised as an infant, it removed Original Sin and made me worthy to be a home for the Holy SPirit, who then came to dwell.
How do you know she wasn't baptized ?
Because there wass no such thing as an efficacious Baptism priior to the Baptism of Christ and the establishment of the Church at Pentecost.
Like I said:
Mary, on the other hand, lived before Jesus came to the earth. Without the benefit of Christian Baptism, she would have had no way of removing her sin prior to the Holy Ghost overshadowing her.
SD
The way I look at it, the "rabbinical stuff" is a certain way of interpreting the meaning of the Law. It has weight because it has tradition behind it, but IMO it is not binding. Torah observance takes precedence; rabbinical observance is optional. Some of it is useful and meaningful, and some doesn't make much sense to me. I'm not about to give up my Sabbath candle-lighting, traditional blessings etc., but I recognize that it is not required.
Why is the presumption made that Jesus needed Apostles to help Him found His Church, but He does not need them anymore?
They left their testimony.John 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
If they were necessary to run the Church well at the beginning, why are they not now?
I don't know that the Apostles so much ran the Church.
Rather, I would say that they established it in the world.Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
How does saying that something is "spiritual" mean that it is not to be taken seriously?
Mary tell you this because I know God didn't?.
If you go to heaven and God assigns you the role of giving out the Hershey bars at snack time, does that make you divine? Does that make you the source of the Hershey bars?
God, might put me in charge of the chocolate? MMMM. I think I would feel really divine :')
I think we both know that.
Some Catholics (undoubtedly a fewer percentage today than in times past) treat her as if she were functionally divine.
And some non-Catholics view any veneration as if the object is divine. And some NCs deny the way humans, including Mary, played a role in their own salvation, and that of others.
And when Catholics assert that, it is seen as equating God and the human, no matter how many times we contextualize it as the human being infinitely less than God.
They pray to her, hope for favors from her, and treat her as if she were omniscient and omnipotent.
If they do without recognizing that she is not a source of grace, but a channel of it, then they are in error.
The title "Mediatrix of All Graces" says that all divine blessings must come through her.
Yes. As all grace enters the world through Jesus, who entered the world through her. Understand, she is not given control of the graces. She does not create them, she does not control to whom they go, she does nothing and wields no authority or power that is not fully on loan from God and entirely in congruence with His Will.
And I'm not just saying that.
SD
No, you did
No, you did :')
Have you got Rotel up there?
Becky
Don't ask me, that's the non-sacramental Christian argument. That somehow when I see tha one verse I am to understand that Jesus is being symbolic, that He is not talking literally.
Whenever I try to poke at it, it gets nowhere. Maybe they'd answer you.
SD
LOL. Ya know what, I saw this just the other day, it was on a special display at the end of the aisle. I was so happy.
SD
And this is supposed to void
Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. (Genesis 9:4)
?
Of course, Jesus's words come later in time, so they supercede Genesis, right?
But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity." (Acts 21:25)
Of course James was just a Judaizer, what did he know?
"This is my Body" is not at all the same as "this is kinda sorta like my Body"
So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. (John 10:7)
Which is not at all the same as "I am kinda sorta like the door of the sheep".
No she isn't :')
But that isn't in the scripture. ;o)
They left their testimony.
21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Um, this is a proof-text for the inability of the Bible to be all-inclusive. Stating that there is more that was revealed to the Apostles than what was written down. That this revelation is guarded by the authority of the Church.
I don't know that the Apostles so much ran the Church. Rather, I would say that they established it in the world.
By establishing it they were in charge. They even wrote letters detailing the faith and had them sent to the other assemblies.
Of course they were in charge. So why did this end?
SD
Possibly. The point being that whatever job God gives you to do, whatever power of His He let's you use, the power is His and the Will is His.
SD
Becky
Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. (Genesis 9:4)
You expect me to eat a dry well-done steak?
Which is not at all the same as "I am kinda sorta like the door of the sheep".
You dropping into Pope-speak? I am-a kinda sorta likea the doora of the sheepa.
SD
Paul's words "supercede" the Genesis "everlasting covenant" of circumcision (well, maybe not for you.) but Jesus' words don't mean anything.
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