Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
Not bad. I have 4 phone lines and couldn't tell you how much I pay. I'd better ask my wife. :-)
Sure the natural order can be violated, but when it comes to angels God did not create them with the ability to reproduce with humans. Why would he? If they could manifest human bodies they might be able to, but it's doubtful that God even gave them the power to reproduce. Angels and humans are different kinds, as differenet as elephants and horses.
In Enoch, non-canonized writing, nonetheless the half brother of Jesus and more than a few anti-nicene fathers viewed it as scripture, it explains that demons are the spirits of the nephilim, the offspring of fallen angels and humans. Since they were conceived in this earthly realm it is required they remain here until the fulfillment of all things.
Interesting...not inspired, but interesting. :-)
But he was still just a man (verses 24-25, 33)—not some human-demonic hybrid.
This argument holds no water since the nephilim were half human.
God could have said "My spirit will not strive with man nor nephalim forever...". That would have been clearer if that were the case. It's like saying there's a bunch of half dog/half human people running around. It just can't happen.
There are a few problems with this. If the godly line of Seth intermarry with the ungodly line of Cain, why do only males from the godly line procreate with females from the ungodly line?
Easy. They were the fast and loose women... :-)
Also right before the flood Noah and his family were the only righteous. What happened to all the rest of the godly line of Seth?
They corrupted.
For someone who's an advocate for the gap theory and pre-adamic civilization, I'm surprised you don't believe this. :-)
I'm not sure I would characterize it as believing in a pre-adamic civilization. There is a chance that there were human looking creatures around before Adam and Eve, but my belief is more along the lines that they angels (eventually fallen) were given the habitation of earth originally. They sinned and the earth was destroyed and corrupt until the restoration by God.
Interesting discussion eh?:-)
I had to go home and make a big egg and cheese on a bagel sandwich.
SD
Please. I was only using the exact same words you did.
I even posted them vertbatim. Do I need to post them again, yet again, to remind you?
I can understand that you don't have an answer, but don't try to change the definitions you brought forward.
If the Apostles ministry was foundational, and the Church was built upon that ministry ... is there any further need for any foundational ministry ?
I asked what is meant by "foundational ministry"? I also asked if, in a sense, every new generation is not encountering the foundation?
That is, why is the presumption that this "foundational ministry" fades away with the Apostles death? And where is this shown in Scripture?
Is it even appropriate to continue work on the foundation ... after beginning to build the main part of the structure ?
Again, I ask, using your own words and definitions here, if upon building the higher floors we suddenly have no need for a foundation?
SD
Just who made this claim? I certainly didn't.
That's exactly what you said. That there was a difference between being born perfect (divine) and being made to become perfect later (not divine).
If you intended to communicate something else, then you have failed.
SD
He didn't create gay people to stick things in the wrong cavities either. By the way, angels can manifest human bodies. Abraham entertained 3 of them on the way to Sodom that sat down and ate with him. Called them men even. Gideon dined with one. There are other examples as well.
God could have said "My spirit will not strive with man nor nephalim forever...". That would have been clearer if that were the case.
Could have but didn't. Wouldn't have been clearer to us since scripture is the roadmap for our redemption, not angels.
It's like saying there's a bunch of half dog/half human people running around.
Not its not.
It just can't happen.
But it did.
Easy. They were the fast and loose women... :-)
Ya right. And only the Godly line of Seth males get horny.:-) Also right before the flood Noah and his family were the only righteous. What happened to all the rest of the godly line of Seth?
They corrupted.
Then why call them the sons of God? Can't have it both ways.
I'm not sure I would characterize it as believing in a pre-adamic civilization. There is a chance that there were human looking creatures around before Adam and Eve, but my belief is more along the lines that they angels (eventually fallen) were given the habitation of earth originally. They sinned and the earth was destroyed and corrupt until the restoration by God.
Either way, a pre-adamic civilization.
Interesting discussion eh?:-)
Sure is. 48,505 posted on 04/25/2003 9:58 AM PDT by DouglasKC
Another SD whopper. What else is new?
I don't recall any NC making the opposite argument. Usually, if the NCs differ they will let each other know.
Surprisingly not a single NC piped up to support the idea of a religious authority that needed to be heeded despite its evil deeds.
SD
The problem with the people in Amos is that they had corrupted themselves by idolatry. Their feasts were corrupt. Any kind of feast in that context is going to be condemned. I'm sure there are feats days even today that God hates.
It’s not the works of the law God loves,
Ro 9:32 33 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
I don't consider celebrating God's Holy Days a work. It's a pleasure and a blessing. Neither did Paul...as he also kept them:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast; not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
I would disagree. I sin every day. I don't always realize that what I'm doing is sinning, but it is sin nonetheless and it separates me from God. Repentence from that sin, which implies a recognition of sin, is what God wants.
Remember, the Fall was related to eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Until Adam and Eve were able to "know" what was right and what was wrong, there was no sin.
I would say that the concept of "evil" had never entered their mind before then. They weren't aware of sin because they had never sinned up to that point. When they sinned, it became clear in their mind just what it was.
Let's carry your "interpretation" of Paul's teaching to it's logical conclusion:
There is one bread.
Check.
we who are many, who partake of this one bread, are one body.
Yep.
We are the actual flesh and blood of Jesus? (Purposely rediculous.)
Yes. We are not talking symbolisim here. We are talking a spiritual reality. Reality.
We are the Body of Christ. Truly. The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. Truly.
By partaking of the Body and Blood at Communion we become members of the Body of Christ. Truly.
With normal foods, you eat them and then turn them into you.
With the eucharist, we eat it and it turns us into what it is. The Body and Bloos of Christ.
SD
Gay people are never going to reproduce by sticking their things in the wrong cavities. A horse is never going to reproduce with an elephant because they are of different kinds. A human can't reproduce with an ape even though we're almost genetically identical. How much further apart would an angel and a human be?
And why would God create angels with the ability to reproduce with humans in the first place? He didn't give that ability to any other creature.
You may not always realize sin as you are doing it, but you have the capability of realizing it. Many factors prevent you from avoiding sin, but your conscience is what knows right from wrong.
I have no doubt that you are capable of telling right from wrong, therefore you are capable of sin.
Now, the mentally challenged or the very young do not have this capacity.
SD
Don't you think that's awfully weak, the notion that He is somehow mystically invested in the bread and wine by the speaking of the words?
I guess it depends on your definition of "weak." I don't see how Jesus, making Himself physically present on our altars when we engage in the remembrance He commanded of us is "weak."
What would "strong" look like?
SD
I just said Abraham mistook angels for men. Sounds pretty close to me.
And why would God create angels with the ability to reproduce with humans in the first place? He didn't give that ability to any other creature.
You'll have to ask Him. Scripturally angels and men are capable of sinning. Are animals capable of sinning?
I think conscience in unconverted people is simply a conditioned response. Look at a child. It would take other peoples things all day if you never taught it that taking things from others is wrong. Conscience in the converted is the conviction of the holy spirit.
I have no doubt that you are capable of telling right from wrong, therefore you are capable of sin.
Now, the mentally challenged or the very young do not have this capacity.
Which of course is the entire argument for infant baptism not being effective in the "saving" of an infant. Since they have no ability to repent from sin, they are still in unrepentent sin.
... the fact that she was with Him crucified and dying, was in accord with the divine plan. For with her suffering and dying Son, Mary endured suffering and almost death. She gave up her Mother's rights over her Son to procure the salvation of mankind, and to appease the divine justice, she, as much as she could, immolated her Son, so that one can truly affirm that together with Christ she has redeemed the human race. But if for this reason, every kind of grace we receive from the treasury of the redemption is ministered as it were through the hands of the same Sorrowful Virgin, everyone can see that a holy death should be expected from her, since it is precisely by this gift that the work of the Redemption is effectively and permanently completed in each one ... further, there is a most constant belief among the faithful, proved by long experience, that as many as employ the same Virgin as Patron, will not at all perish forever.
Angels leaving their habitation and like Sodom and Gomorrha giving themselves over to fornication. Sounds pretty clear to me. Key words here: "even as".
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