The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[RobbyS]

You can't stand"(reject) the Catholic doctrines you list they are directly opposed to your own dogmas. You reject Catholic ceremonials because they not in accord with your tastes. You reject the priesthood because you accept an entirely different polity. Why you should put Marianism at the top of your hate list is, however, rather strange, because to most Catholics, devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is a secondary matter.

[OLD REGGIE]

Reggie, just one self-identified Catholic saying they "worship" Mary would be sufficient. For starters.

Unless you are going to post Ksen's favorite passage, in which case I don't feel like playing stupid semantic games.

I imagine you don't wish to get into (again) the "special" definition of worship as applied to JPII or the semantic differences between "latria" and "hyperdulia". That is fine with me. I'll settle for the definition of "hyperdulia" from an official Catholic source such as the Catholic Catechism or a declared Infallible pronouncement from a Pope or a "unanimous" declaration of a Council. Fair enough?

In the meantime:

Pope Paul VI,
"From the time that we were called to the Chair of St. Peter, we have constantly worked to increase the worship of Mary (culto mariano)" [per il retto ordinamento e sviluppo del culto della beata Vergine Maria - esortazione apostolica di Sua Santita Paolo VII, Page 2]
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The whole Trinity, O Mary, gave thee a name...above every name, that at Thy name, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, p. 260).

The Holy Church commands a worship peculiar to Mary (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri p. 130).

Many things...are asked from God, and are not granted; they are asked from Mary, and are obtained, for She...is even Queen of Hell, and Sovereign Mistress of the Devils.” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, 1931). pp. 127, 141, 143).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participated with Christ in the painful act of redemption. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 618, 964, 968, 970) “All power is given to thee in Heaven and on earth, so that at the command of Mary all obey-even God...and thus...God has placed the whole Church...under the dominion of Mary (pp. 180-181). Mary is also the Advocate of the whole human race...for she can do what she wills with God” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, p. 193).

The Glories of Mary: "Mary is called the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing by her" (p.134)

"And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when 'the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than thru Mary.'" (p.143)

"He who is protected by Mary will be saved; he who is not will be lost." (p.144)

The Glories of Mary: "All power is given to thee in heaven and on earth, and nothing is impossible to thee, who canst raise those who are in despair to the hope of salvation." (p.154)

"At the command of Mary, all obey, even God." (p.155)

"Yes, Mary is omnipotent." (p.155)

"This great Virgin, who is the Mother of your God and Judge, is also the Advocate of the whole human race : fit for this office, for she can do what she wills with God." (p.171-172)

The Glories of Mary: "We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus." (p.228)

"For she ... is our salvation, our life, our hope, our counsel, our refuge, our help." (p.230)

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Ligouri, the Glories of Mary

[SoothingDave]

The part where you find anyplace in the Bible where it says Mary was full of grace.

That does rather nip things in the bud. :-)

SD

[SoothingDave]

Apart from the passage from Paul VI, nothing you quote is a binding statement.

As for that passage, it is clearly meant to mean the same thing that is meant in Kevin's favorite passage. you might want to pass this along to him.

You can believe it means whatever you want. Don't let the explanations of actual Catholics get in the way.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Sorry Dave. Vulgate is Jerome's best effort of translating from the Original Koine Greek to Latin.

It is closer to the following when translated from Koine Greek to English.

I suspect Dave is well aware of this. He hunted high and low until he found a translation and a translation of a translation which had his magic words.

[SoothingDave]

I suspect Dave is well aware of this. He hunted high and low until he found a translation and a translation of a translation which had his magic words.

Give me a break. Using the Vulgate is not exactly a novel idea for a Catholic. Nor is using the Douay-Rheims, the traditional English language Catholic Bible. Which is not effected by the pressures and viewpoints of more contemporary ones, like the New American, which placed readability over accuracy.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

It depends on what you mean by "leave." If by "leave" you mena become convinced that everyone in your family is going to hell because of their faith, and that they require you to preach to them the true gospel whenever you see them, yes that could cause problems.

I think it depends on the family. Without going to the extremes as posited by Dave, there are some families in which it would make no difference and some in which it would cause great problems.

More than 50 years ago, when I left the RCC, the whole idea caused great problems in my family and it caused greater problems with our families when my Catholic wife and I decided to Church School our children in a Protestant Church.

Even in my extended family I doubt the same level of problems today.

[OLD REGGIE]

It's about time a bishop started doing this. Hey, Reg ... ask the bishops in Mass to do this starting with the Kennedys.

The bishops don't listen to the priests. The bishops don't listen to the faithful Catholics. What makes you think they's listen to me? Besides, there would be no Catholic politicians left in Massachusetts.

[OLD REGGIE]

It's all quite obvious if you sit down and think about it.

And take a little toke first!

[OLD REGGIE]

Apart from the passage from Paul VI, nothing you quote is a binding statement.

You didn't mention anything about "binding". You simply asked for "Catholics" didn't you?

As for that passage, it is clearly meant to mean the same thing that is meant in Kevin's favorite passage. you might want to pass this along to him.

Why didn't you just ping him? Consider it done.

You can believe it means whatever you want. Don't let the explanations of actual Catholics get in the way.

"Actual Catholics"?????? What do you mean by that? What about OFFICIAL CATHOLIC TEACHING? I have heard "actual Catholics" espouse "Right to Abortion", deny the Real Presence, Perpetual Virginity, etc. Do you mean those actual Catholics?

You have trained me enough that I can accept nothing but OFFICIAL CATHOLIC TEACHING. Don't let me down.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You have trained me enough that I can accept nothing but OFFICIAL CATHOLIC TEACHING. Don't let me down.

SD: They say he heard from this kid, who's going with this girl, who heard from this guy, who found a note in the trash, that was written by this other girl who was going with that other guy who shredded the original memo written by this third girl who the fourth got pregnant by the seventh son whose seventh grandchild told his seventh great-grandchild.......

BigMack

[RobbyS]

As is often the case, only Paul Tillich manages to deal with the matter with some sense of proportion: Paul Tilich : A History of Christian Thought, Page 78 "The (holy ) Spirit was replaced in actual piety by the Holy Virgin. The virgin who gave birth to God acquired divinity herself to a certain extent, at least for popular piety."

Which, to me, is like the evangelical tendency to swallow up the Trinity in the person of Jesus, what has been called the unitarianism of the 2nd Person.

[SoothingDave]

You have trained me enough that I can accept nothing but OFFICIAL CATHOLIC TEACHING

If you've been trained to accept nothing but official teaching, why did you quote all that Liguori stuff?

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

How can it make no difference? It obviously makes an enormous difference as to who Jesus is. If He is actually the Son of Mary, this is different than if she was a mere surrogate.

I should have said it makes no difference to me. God made Jesus and I don't dwell on the method He chose.

But, that is nothing. The real issue, as I asked the others, is how Jesus can take on our sins if He isn't even related to us?

If He is not a man, truly a man, descended from Adam, then how does He redeem us?

God can choose any method He wishes. Do you insist on a formula of your choosing?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Here's a scripture I found that said Elijah was taken up into heaven.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

And then it doesn't seem Moses' remained in the ground like normal people either.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses,

[OLD REGGIE]

Reggie, just one self-identified Catholic saying they "worship" Mary would be sufficient. For starters.

"Total Consecration, which itself is the perfection of devotion to Mary, consists in offering everything you have, body and soul, interiorly and exteriorly, spiritual and temporal to Mary and Her service, as a slave to his Queen." (St. Louis Marie Montfort "True Devotion to Mary")

"Everything you have" is not worship?

[OLD REGGIE]

If you've been trained to accept nothing but official teaching, why did you quote all that Liguori stuff?

Because I was responding to you. The parameters were established by none other than SD.

"Reggie, just one self-identified Catholic saying they "worship" Mary would be sufficient. For starters."

[SoothingDave]

Because I was responding to you. The parameters were established by none other than SD.

Yes, and I also said don't play stupid semantic games over the word "worship." That is what you decided to do.

Everyone have a safe and happy holiday and/or weekend.

SD

[RobbyS]

God can choose any method He wishes. The question is which method He did choose. I am not quite sure where you stand as to method, by the way, since your approach is so negative. That is: To state (what you think) is Catholic doctrine and then deny it.

[JHavard]

As is often the case, only Paul Tillich manages to deal with the matter with some sense of proportion: Paul Tilich : A History of Christian Thought, Page 78 "The (holy ) Spirit was replaced in actual piety by the Holy Virgin. The virgin who gave birth to God acquired divinity herself to a certain extent, at least for popular piety."

Okay Robby, before I bite, do you believe what this idiot Paul Tillich wrote?

JH