The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[al_c]

Uh oh. Didn't know all ya'll down there could read the fine print. ;o)

Hey! >:(

So ... are you the one that put together that anti-SBC ad in Illinois that's getting on the nerve of every Texan? ;o)

[al_c]

Caz no way can this place be Heaven.

Careful! You may just get an escort out of this state with that kind of talk.

[CindyDawg]

Caz no way can this place be Heaven

Talking about earth. Didn't you see my post about Texas to JH? lol . Tell me about that Ad.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Hey Cindy,

The guy did overstep as far as his questions, IMO. From the account of the visit, after your husband said he would not go to hell, the next question should have been "why do you think you will go to heaven?" If your husbands answer was the correct one, he should have left that topic there Then a short visit to get to know your husband, then left. That way he could have come back. built a relationship. The chances of that getting your husband to church would have been better.

But something that is hard for people to accept is, pastors are human and make mistakes. For a pastor to learn of/from their mistakes they have to be confronted with them. IMO, the reason the bible stresses for us to assemble together is for support, AND teaching each other, that goes for the laity teaching the clergy also.

If it were me:), I would go to that pastor and tell him he blew it. Tell him why, tell him what he SHOULD have said. Then see if the man is a mature enough Christian to apologize. Warn your husband, and tell him to be mature enough to let the man apologize and accept it gracefully. That is what Christians do.

If the man doesn't apologize, I would probably move on, because it seems he must think going to church is part of salvation, or he is the one that needs the icy hot. That is exactly why we changed churches a while back. The preacher of our old church refused to see that he was dead wrong about an issue, even when 90% of the men in the church had told him.

I noticed in one of your posts you said you did not like confrontations. No one does. But all Christians should be "family" As long as we keep walls up between us and don't discuss we will never grow in Christian love, IMO. The bible says not to sin in our anger, which tells me we can get angry just don't walk in and cuss the guy:), which I know you wouldn't do anyway. But just walking away without giving the guy a chance maybe just as bad. He may be doing this same thing to others and turning them off from salvation, let alone from coming to church. He needs to learn, and since God sent him to see your husband He must believe you are just the one to set this guy right:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Why all the instructions for how to run churches, in Timothy and Titus, for elders and preachers?

Becky

[SoothingDave]

What I cannot get my mind around is the orthodox conception of Jesus being one in being with the Father, the second person of a trinitarian God. Instead of trinitarianism, what makes more sense to me is the alternative doctrine of dynamic monarchianism, which holds that Jesus was a man, and that he was "adopted" as God's Son at his baptism.

Then, believe that. I don't think anyone here is saying that you need to understand or accept orthodox Trinitarian Christology in order to be "saved." Sure, it would be ideal, but if this is presenting itself as a stumbling block to accepting the atonement provided by Jesus, then let it go.

Bottom line is, why should I believe that these accounts are literally true?

Why should you accept the accounts of the Old Testament? The veracity of the accounts of the Resurrection are attested to by the Church, which authored and protected the accounts. While this is not definitive, a whole lot of people have done great wonders, even unto death, to preserve the absolute reality of these accounts. The passing on of the truth of the Resurrection is the raison d'etre of the Christian Church. Without this Truth to carry on, it becomes Bishop Spong giving sex advice and little more.

If I need faith in Jesus in order to be saved, and I can only have this faith through God's grace, then I guess the Calvinists are right about predestination. If I need something that only God can give me, and if He chooses not to give it to me, then I am SOL.

This is the exact "dark side" of the Calvinist distortion of reality. Forget about it. God gives you what you need.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

to accepting the atonement provided by Jesus, then let it go.

How can a christian let this point go? What is he to believe in for the atonement for sin and actually get atonement?

Becky

[SoothingDave]

Re 46149

The schedules rotate now on a fixed pattern. This year each North division plays the West divisions from each conference. That's 8 games. 6 games for your division foes. And the final 2 are against the teams from the other two divisions in your conference who finished in the same position last year.

Do you mean the west division from the other conference?

Yes, the other conference. The AFC North teams will play every team in the AFC West and the NFC West. The NFC North teams will play everyone in the AFC West and the NFC West. So, besides our divison foes, we play practically the same schedule.

Steeler Schedule:

Sunday, Sept. 7 BALTIMORE 1:00 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Sept. 14 at Kansas City 1:00 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Sept. 21 at Cincinnati 1:00 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Sept. 28 TENNESSEE 1:00 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Oct. 5 CLEVELAND 8:30 p.m. - ESPN
Sunday, Oct. 12 at Denver 4:15 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Oct. 19 BYE WEEK
Sunday, Oct. 26 ST. LOUIS (1,000th game) 1:00 p.m. - FOX
Sunday, Nov. 2 at Seattle 4:00 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Nov. 9 ARIZONA 1:00 p.m. - FOX
Monday, Nov. 17 at San Francisco 9:00 p.m. - ABC
Sunday, Nov. 23 at Cleveland 1:00 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Nov. 30 CINCINNATI 1:00 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Dec. 7 OAKLAND 1:00 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Dec. 14 at New York Jets 1:00 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Dec. 21 SAN DIEGO 4:05 p.m. - CBS
Sunday, Dec. 28 at Baltimore 8:30 p.m. - ESPN

************************************************

Packer schedule:

Sun., Sept. 7 Minnesota Vikings 12 noon FOX
Sun., Sept. 14 Detroit Lions* 12 noon FOX
Sun., Sept. 21 at Arizona Cardinals 3:05 p.m. FOX
Mon., Sept. 29 at Chicago Bears 8 p.m. ABC
Sun., Oct. 5 Seattle Seahawks 12 noon FOX
Sun., Oct. 12 Kansas City Chiefs 12 noon CBS
Sun., Oct. 19 at St. Louis Rams 12 noon FOX
Sun., Oct. 26 Open Date
Sun., Nov. 2 at Minnesota Vikings 7:30 p.m. ESPN
Mon., Nov. 10 Philadelphia Eagles* 8 p.m. ABC
Sun., Nov. 16 at Tampa Bay Buccaneers 3:15 p.m. FOX
Sun., Nov. 23 San Francisco 49ers 12 noon FOX
Thurs., Nov. 27 at Detroit Lions 11:30 a.m. FOX
Sun., Dec. 7 Chicago Bears 12 noon FOX
Sun., Dec. 14 at San Diego Chargers 3:15 p.m. FOX
Mon., Dec. 22 at Oakland Raiders 8 p.m. ABC
Sun., Dec. 28 Denver Broncos 3:15 p.m. CBS

[nate4one]

They taught them how to care for the flock. They didn't say gather in one spot once a week to administer these gifts and instruction.
You could be a teacher if God gave you that gift, or an exhorter. It is lived out in daily life. Church for them was not a weekly occurance, it was daily community life. It was survival for those in Jerusalem (Note 1 Cor and Acts).

This "Reformed" Catholic practice of Mass (protestant of Catholic) is not the Biblical reality of what God set up.

Like I told Cindy, men are Pastors because college gave them a degree and a denomination "ordained" them. In the bible God ordained them. It was through His gifts. Plus in the Bible, being a pastor, teacher, etc. was for the most part seperate from their income. They did not do this for a living, they did it for their lives. The occupation" of church compromises it's effectiveness and purpose.

God Bless
Nate

Oh hey. I downloaded some very recent pictures on my website of Adam and Cassandra. They are classic!
God Bless

[SoothingDave]

How can a christian let this point go? What is he to believe in for the atonement for sin and actually get atonement?

I said that if he is having problems with orthodox Trinitarianism, that he should not let that stop him from accepting Jesus as Savior. Wouldn't you agree?

SD

[al_c]

Tell me about that Ad.

An SBC competitor in Illinois is running a commercial that basically represents SBC (and Texans) as a "Boss Hogg" type of character and it's apparently angering quite a few Texans, especially the folks at SBC.

[nate4one]

This is the exact "dark side" of the Calvinist distortion of reality. Forget about it. God gives you what you need.

Dave
"God gives you what you need" proves predestination (not necessarily Calvinism).
I do concur with your other statement though. Trinitarian doctrine was not always accepted in the Churh. If knowledge of the entire, complete truth of God is required, we are all damned because no one has it ALL right all the time.

Oh, except the Pope, right ? :o)

[SoothingDave]

An SBC competitor in Illinois is running a commercial that basically represents SBC (and Texans) as a "Boss Hogg" type of character and it's apparently angering quite a few Texans, especially the folks at SBC.

That's silly. The Duke boys and Boss Hogg seem more like Tennesse than Texas, to me.

Speaking of ads, how about the one they showed during the basketball tournament, where the guy helps his pretty neighbor move a box, then tries to stick a note on her door?

SD

[SoothingDave]

"God gives you what you need" proves predestination (not necessarily Calvinism).

I don't think so. Calvinism has God denying essential changing, regenerating grace to those He does not choose to elect. The onus is then on God.

The Truth is that God gives each of us sufficient grace to become "saved." The onus is on us to respond.

Trinitarian doctrine was not always accepted in the Churh.

True. Until the 4th century, then it became defined dogma. Which is not to say there were not dissenters about.

If knowledge of the entire, complete truth of God is required, we are all damned because no one has it ALL right all the time.

Absolutely. But the definition of the Trinity is a far cry from "the entire, complete truth of God."

SD

[al_c]

Posting schedules? Okay ... This one's been called one of the toughest this year. I suspect maybe that's because it's the Cowboys (any schedule would be tough for them). Seriously, though, they do have some tough ones this year. At NYG, NYJ, Tampa, NE, NO and of course Philly and Washington. Probably an 8 - 8 year at best. I can't wait to see what Emmitt and the Cards can do against them. I hope Emmitt has a 200 yd day.

COMPLETE SCHEDULE & RESULTS
WK	DATE	OPPONENT
0	BYE WEEK
1	Sep 7	Atlanta
2	Sep 15	at NY Giants
4	Sep 28	at NY Jets
5	Oct 5	Arizona
6	Oct 12	Philadelphia
7	Oct 19	at Detroit
8	Oct 26	at Tampa Bay
9	Nov 2	Washington
10	Nov 9	Buffalo
11	Nov 16	at New England
12	Nov 23	Carolina
13	Nov 27	Miami
14	Dec 7	at Philadelphia
15	Dec 14	at Washington
16	Dec 21	NY Giants
17	Dec 28	at New Orleans

[al_c]

Speaking of ads, how about the one they showed during the basketball tournament, where the guy helps his pretty neighbor move a box, then tries to stick a note on her door?

I laugh out loud every time I see that one.

[nate4one]

Absolutely. But the definition of the Trinity is a far cry from "the entire, complete truth of God."

I agree. I am not saying it is. It is a small piece.

The Truth is that God gives each of us sufficient grace to become "saved." The onus is on us to respond.

I will be honest and say I admit I am a strong "election" believer pre AD 70.
I, however, am leaning to the "free-will" side post AD 70.
Nate

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Ok, I'm sorry, I see what you are saying now. I was reading your post wrong. Yes, I believe the trinity is a tough one. If you believe Jesus died for your sins, but do not understand the trinity (which no one does exactly:), then do accept. What you need will come as God sees fit.

[SoothingDave]

Posting schedules?

No, not exactly. I was demonstrating how the schedules are constructed, using the new formula of the NFL's.

SD

[al_c]

A golf driving range in Wisconsin has set up an 8-foot-wide, 12-foot-tall billboard of Saddam Hussein.