Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
And that's why soccer is a socialist sport. No stoppages for "a word form our sponsor." Darn it, I'm an American. I need intervals to pee and grab something from the fridge. ;-)
SD
Well, they could always go to a "pseudo-live" broadcast, but I don't think people would like that.
I think the advertisers are growing to like the invasive advertising rather than the traditional kind. Rather than a break in the action, you get a corner bug telling you the score is brought to you by Coke or Snickers.
You can't avoid it, by zipping by the commercials, cause they are in thae show. Like Survivor does constantly with product placement.
SD
I understand that currently there is a group of Karaites who claim to be the only true descendents of "The Chosen" and they adhere to the Torah only. They seemed to have separated from phariseical judaism in the eighth century and have lived in Russia for most of their history. I read that they were descended from the Ananites.
I have also heard that the word Jew was not to be found in the Old or New Testament until the KJV was published. I heard that translating Jerusaleum and Judeans and related terms was so clumsy due to the I/J that they just gave up and called those people with connections to the Israelites that llived under Roman rule and worshipped at the Temple in Jerusaleum,Jews. I find this all fascinating because I have gotten real stuck on quite a few things that make no sense to me with the new license taken with everyone and anyone interpreting and translating and revisiting everything and anything.
Do you know what definition and import the terms temple and synogogue have on our understanding of religion at the time Christ came? How about now?
I think my interest was piqued on this recently when some Catholic Church bishops came out with a draft saying the "Old Covenant" is still in effect,which seemed worth thinking about. but that led me to the question of "OK,but with who?"Any thoughts or information would be appreciated. Thanks.
The closest I can think of would probably be the Sadducees. They rejected the Pharisaic idea of an Oral Law.
I have also heard that the word Jew was not to be found in the Old or New Testament until the KJV was published.
That is inaccurate. The word yehudi, or Jew, occurs in both Zechariah and Esther, and a variation occurs in Jeremiah.
Do you know what definition and import the terms temple and synogogue have on our understanding of religion at the time Christ came? How about now?
The "temple" in 1st century usage referred only to the temple in Jerusalem. Synagogues, then and now, referred to local places of study and worship. Animal sacrifices were made only in the temple, not in the synagogue.
Reform and some Conservative congregations do use the term "temple" to refer to their houses of worship, but technically this is an incorrect usage. The local synagogue didn't and doesn't replace the temple.
I think my interest was piqued on this recently when some Catholic Church bishops came out with a draft saying the "Old Covenant" is still in effect,which seemed worth thinking about. but that led me to the question of "OK,but with who?"
Depends who you ask. Most people would say "with the Jews". But some messianic Christians would say that it is in effect as well for those who have been "grafted into" Israel.
I find that I can watch the Avalanche on TV. If its two other teams I have a hard time. Unless its playoff hockey.
Perhaps the reason the canon was never opened again after the days of Ezra was for the very reason that intertestimental writings ascribe diety to the messiah. Just a thought.
I really have to read the works in question before I can comment intelligently (or otherwise ;o). I've heard of extra-canonical writings that speculate about the preexistence of the messiah. Is this the sort of thing you are talking about? Or is it more specific?
Yes, specifically Enoch. Jesus' half brother Jude quoted in the New Testament a prophecy by Enoch from the intertestemental writing of Enoch. Apparently some jews in the first century thought that book was scripture.
Terms to define: "preexistence of the messiah" as understood by the intertestamental writers. "Salvation" as understood by intertestamental writers and the earliest Nazarene Jews.
Are they here to stay or will they end up like the waterbed?
We got one, they hold up good, nothing like a water bed, there here to stay, if ya buy one, chech the internet first, the one we bought was priced 1/2 less on the internet and no taxes, then the ones in the retail stores.
Before you buy one tho, go look at the foam ones, we went to Branson MO a couple of years ago, and we tried one out, and all I can say is, it was heaven, so much better, the air ones are 10 times better then the spring ones, but the foam ones are 100 times better, its the way to go, and again you can buy them over the internet at about half of what you can get them for retail.
BigMack
"Grafted in" to Israel, eh? ;o)
Danm straight!
I love you Jewish business guys, when I want to learn how to scre..um do better business with others, I always study WWTJD first.
I'm an offical "Grafted in" redneck Jew! :)
BigMack
Maybe it would help if I quoted a couple.
From Enoch......And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and his name before the Head of Days. Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, His name was named before the Lord of Spirts. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, and he shall be the light of the Gentiles, and the hope of those who are troubled of heart.
Not bad for something written 200 years before Yeshua.
From Psalms of Solomon........The Lord Himself is his king, the hope of him that is mighty through hope in God. All nations in fear before him
For he will smite the earth with the word of him mouth forever.
He will bless the people of the Lord with wisdom and gladness,
And he himslef pure from sin, so that he may rule a great people.
He will rebuke rulers, and remove sinners by the might of his word
Next the Damascus document.....In accordance with the covenant, which God established with the forefathers in order to pardon their sins, so shall God make atonement for them.
And this is the regulation for the many in order to provide for all their needs. The wages of two days everymonth is the rule. And they shall give it into the hands of the Censor and the judges. From it they shall give and it they shall strengthen the hand of the poor and the needs. And to the aged man who...to the vagrant and him was taken captive of a strange people. And to the virgin who has (no dot) (and to him whom) no man careth for: every work...and not...and this is the explanation of the settlement...And this is the explanation of the judgments which...Aaron and Israel. AND HE WILL PARDON OUR SINS...in money and he shall know...punishment six days and who shall speak...against Mos(es)
Next from 4 Ezra....This is the interpretation of the vision: As for your seeing a man come up from the heart of the sea, this is he whom the Most High has been keeping for many ages, who will himself deliver his creation;
and finally 2 Baruch...And it shall come to pass after these things, when the time of the advent of the Messiah is fulfilled, that He shall return in glory. Then all who have fallen asleep in hope of Him shall rise again. And it will come to pass when the time of its consummation that it should fall has approached, then the principate of My Messiah will be revealed...And his principate will stand forever, until the world of corruption is at an end, and until the times aforesaid are fulfilled. this is your vision, and this is its interpretation.
Three strangers at a small terminal in the Texas Panhandle, are awaiting their shuttle flight. One is an American Indian passing through from Oklahoma. Another, a local ranch hand on his way to Fort Worth for a stock show. The third passenger is a fundamentalist Arab student, newly arrived at the Texas oil patch from the Middle East. To pass the time, they strike up a conversation on recent events, and the discussion drifts to their diverse cultures. Soon the Westerners learn that the Arab is a devout radical Muslim. The conversation falls into an uneasy lull. The cowpoke leans back in his chair, crosses his boots on a magazine table, tips his big sweat-stained hat forward over his face. The wind outside blows tumbleweeds and the old windsock flaps.
Finally, the American Indian clears his throat and softly, he speaks: "Once, my people were many, now we are few". The radical Muslim raises an eyebrow and leans forward, "Once my people were few," he sneers, "and now we are many. Why do you suppose that is?"
The Texan shifts the toothpick to one side of his mouth and from the darkness beneath his Stetson says in a drawl, "That's cuz we ain't played cowboys and Muslims yet."
And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and his name before the Head of Days.
We could have a whole discussion just on the term "Son of Man". Remember Eisenman's discussion of the Primal Adam and the tzaddikim.
Looking at this passage, it sounds to me like it is saying that the Son of Man (whoever that is) was named before time, which is not necessarily the same as being preexistent. In any case, this postulates the Son of Man as being created rather than an eternally begotten person of the Godhead.
From Psalms of Solomon.
Don't see anything to question there.
Next the Damascus document.
Seems rather disjointed, like part of the text is lost. I need to read it in context.
Next from 4 Ezra.
Yes, this must be the source of what I heard/read about regarding preexistence.
and finally 2 Baruch.
Sounds like a typical eschatological work, seeing the messiah as heralding a new heaven and new earth, rather than simply a restoration of the Davidic kingdom.
No, but I have no doubt it is true.
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