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To: malakhi
Terms to define: "preexistence of the messiah" as understood by the intertestamental writers. "Salvation" as understood by intertestamental writers and the earliest Nazarene Jews.

Maybe it would help if I quoted a couple.

From Enoch......And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and his name before the Head of Days. Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, His name was named before the Lord of Spirts. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, and he shall be the light of the Gentiles, and the hope of those who are troubled of heart.

Not bad for something written 200 years before Yeshua.

From Psalms of Solomon........The Lord Himself is his king, the hope of him that is mighty through hope in God. All nations in fear before him

For he will smite the earth with the word of him mouth forever.

He will bless the people of the Lord with wisdom and gladness,

And he himslef pure from sin, so that he may rule a great people.

He will rebuke rulers, and remove sinners by the might of his word

Next the Damascus document.....In accordance with the covenant, which God established with the forefathers in order to pardon their sins, so shall God make atonement for them.

And this is the regulation for the many in order to provide for all their needs. The wages of two days everymonth is the rule. And they shall give it into the hands of the Censor and the judges. From it they shall give and it they shall strengthen the hand of the poor and the needs. And to the aged man who...to the vagrant and him was taken captive of a strange people. And to the virgin who has (no dot) (and to him whom) no man careth for: every work...and not...and this is the explanation of the settlement...And this is the explanation of the judgments which...Aaron and Israel. AND HE WILL PARDON OUR SINS...in money and he shall know...punishment six days and who shall speak...against Mos(es)

Next from 4 Ezra....This is the interpretation of the vision: As for your seeing a man come up from the heart of the sea, this is he whom the Most High has been keeping for many ages, who will himself deliver his creation;

and finally 2 Baruch...And it shall come to pass after these things, when the time of the advent of the Messiah is fulfilled, that He shall return in glory. Then all who have fallen asleep in hope of Him shall rise again. And it will come to pass when the time of its consummation that it should fall has approached, then the principate of My Messiah will be revealed...And his principate will stand forever, until the world of corruption is at an end, and until the times aforesaid are fulfilled. this is your vision, and this is its interpretation.

46,056 posted on 04/02/2003 1:45:27 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Interesting.

And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, and his name before the Head of Days.

We could have a whole discussion just on the term "Son of Man". Remember Eisenman's discussion of the Primal Adam and the tzaddikim.

Looking at this passage, it sounds to me like it is saying that the Son of Man (whoever that is) was named before time, which is not necessarily the same as being preexistent. In any case, this postulates the Son of Man as being created rather than an eternally begotten person of the Godhead.

From Psalms of Solomon.

Don't see anything to question there.

Next the Damascus document.

Seems rather disjointed, like part of the text is lost. I need to read it in context.

Next from 4 Ezra.

Yes, this must be the source of what I heard/read about regarding preexistence.

and finally 2 Baruch.

Sounds like a typical eschatological work, seeing the messiah as heralding a new heaven and new earth, rather than simply a restoration of the Davidic kingdom.

46,059 posted on 04/02/2003 2:06:06 PM PST by malakhi (fundamentalist unitarian)
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