The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[OLD REGGIE]

You think when Jesus showed them they were wrong, they didn't try to correct their mistake?

Scripture, not your imagination, where any of the apostles went to the man and gave their blessings, or, in any way, let him know Jesus approved.

With your proclivity to "read between the lines" I can understand why you would rely on an outside "authority" to interpret Scripture for you.

Have you ever considered praying to the Lord for guidance before reading Scripture?

[OLD REGGIE]

Duh. I read from Jesus setting up Apostles and a Church that He thought there would be an authority. I mean, why bother? Why didn't He just write the NT and then Ascend to Heaven?

Why did he bother going through the crucifiction?

Why are you so hung up on the imaginary "authority" given to some men?

[JHavard]

I have no held beliefs in this matter, but only a lot of scattered thoughts and questions.

Since Jews who believed in Christ were dispersed in 70AD from Jerusalem, into different parts of the world, those Christian Jews either died off still keeping the law of Moses, or their children gradually reverted back to Judaism, or they became aware of the New Covenant and became as a Gentile, and blended into the wood work, or is there another choice?

Are their still areas where there are Jews who do not keep the Levitical laws or the Sabbath?

Are all messianic Jews who are new or fairly new to their faith, or are there some that have a history that goes back to the time of Christ?

What happened to all those thousands of Jews who became converted to Christianity? Did they just cease to be Jews and fade into the landscape of the gentiles?

What did they teach their children to be, Jews who were under the New Covenant, and therefore not obliged to keep the laws of Moses?

How were they considered Jews then, if they didn’t keep the Sabbath or the dietary laws or the feast days?

Did God drop the whole plan until after the times of the Gentiles were over?

Were the Jews who became converted during the time of Christ and the apostles, was that the extent of God’s attempt at the time to convert them?

If a man claims to be a Jew, but isn’t circumcised, doesn’t keep the Jewish Sabbath, the Jewish feast days, or the levitical dietary laws, is he still a Jew?

Taking away all the laws of Judaism from a Jew, aren’t they in actuality doing away with his race?

If a Jew becomes a Christian, isn’t he giving up his religion and his race at the same time?

If a Jew converts and no longer has his children circumcised, or teach them the law, isn’t he giving up his race of people? Is that what God intended, for the Jewish race to no longer exist?

Christians who’s goal it is to convert the Jew to Christianity, isn’t that the ultimate goal, or the automatic result, to eliminate Judaism?

Can someone put this whole picture together for me?

[dadwags]

In your #28426, you posited severalerrors/heresies as "A Catholic believes..."
Actually, when a "Catholic" does not believe what the Church teaches, he/she ceases to be a Catholic and becomes a "heretic", as in one who looks at the catalogue of dostrines/teachings of the Church and "chooses" to accept some and reject some .
That person is technically, a Heretic .

[OLD REGGIE]

Where am I inconsitent? I fear I may have lost you in too many "theys."

SD Quotes:

"The point is that they were doing no wrong, so there was no reason to stop them."

"They forbade a man to do something that was not wrong. So Jesus told them they were wrong to do that."

"Then we agree -- if someone is doing good in Jesus' Name, the Apostles are wrong to stop him."

Oh yes! The model of consistency.

[dadwags]

"....I notice you didn't mention the toilet paper...."

Maybe that was because they had the Sears Roebuck catalogue . :)

[OLD REGGIE]

In your #28426, you posited severalerrors/heresies as "A Catholic believes..."
Actually, when a "Catholic" does not believe what the Church teaches, he/she ceases to be a Catholic and becomes a "heretic", as in one who looks at the catalogue of dostrines/teachings of the Church and "chooses" to accept some and reject some .
That person is technically, a Heretic .

Oh yes, I know this. It was simply my way of saying it is an error to say such things as "Catholics believe", "Protestants believe", and the like. It is first necessary to define exactly what is meant.

Surely counts such as 62,000,000 Catholics in the United States, includes many millions of the "Catholics" in the categories I listed.

Since you know my list didn't include all "heretic Catholics, the number of "Real" Catholics is probably very small.

Did you ever consider that there may be many more Baptists than Catholics in the United States? He he.

[Iowegian]

Homosexual activist admits true goals and rewrites Scripture to prove his point while lecturing clergy

My title. :)

[CindyDawg]

I didn't read the letter. Is it available?

I don't know how to link yet so i'll go into my comments and ping you to it CD

[DouglasKC]

Sure. Do you think if He came to a Steeler game he'd turn down some Kielbasa? What if He went to a family's house on pork chop night? Do you think He'd turn his nose up, or do you think He'd welcome the hospitality of His hosts?

Do you believe that while Jesus was in the flesh that he ever ate any animal that was designated unclean in Leviticus? If he had done so would it have been a sin?

These were the Ancestors of the Jews. They may have had this revealed to the earlier than the giving of the Law. Certainly not all peoples had this distinction.

My point on this was that these designations were in effect before being spelled out to Israel or the Jews. Noah was the ancestor of everyone...at least if the bible is taken literally here.

[DouglasKC]

And the networks are all hysterical. They've got their reporters out in the field breathlessly commenting on the situation. SNOW! ON THE EAST COAST METROPLEX! IN DECEMBER! Eight inches of snow in Milwaukee doesn't generate the same sort of coverage.

lol...ain't that the truth. Here in West Michigan we get so make lake effect from Lake Michigan that hardly anybody bothers to plow or snowblow their driveways for anything under 6 inches.

[DouglasKC]

We also have to reemmber that the men who wrote about Noah did so many years after him, so they were interpreting the story in terms they were familiar with. How sure are we how old the tradition of unclean/clean animals was?

As old as the bible says it is... :-)

[Iowegian]

Worse, USC could end up getting passed over for an at-large bid in favor of Notre Dame, even though they crushed Notre Dame in their head-to-head matchup, even though they are ranked 4th in the BCS poll, and Notre Dame is ranked 10th.

Not to be a nitpicker, but USC is almost certainly in because the all top 4 in the final BCS rankings given are automatic bids. This is the so-call "Kansas State" rule.

Fiesta: Miami (Fla.) vs. Ohio State
Orange: Oklahoma vs. Notre Dame
Sugar: Florida State vs. Georgia
Rose: USC or Washington State vs. Iowa

Fiesta - right
Orange - Colorado vs at-large (USC or Kansas State or Notre Dame)
Sugar - who cares?
Rose - correct

Give us a playoff system, please.

Amen to that. BTW Iowa is in BCS Bowl 90% chance- Rose Bowl, 10% chance Orange Bowl. The Big Ten and Rose Bowl using muscle to make sure they do the right thing.

[Quester]

I think we've established what the two sides believe. Now tell me why you think the Scripture you cite means that the Spirit will guide you personally and without need of any intervening instruments to all truth?

Well, actually, I believe that the Spirit can use whatever means He chooses to reveal truth to us. Sometimes He will use 'intervening instruments' and sometimes He chooses not to ... (take Paul's conversion, for example). What I am saying, though, is that He need not use 'intervening instruments' if He chooses not to.

I can recognize the Spirit working through others and through the Church. All come together in order to lead me. I'm not sure why you think the Scripture means it is all on an individual basis.

SD

I believe that this stems from the fact that your salvation is a personal, individual matter between you and God.

Ultimately, God holds you responsible for being sure of His word (message) to you. In that final analysis, it will not be acceptable that you have acquiesed to accept the truth from any so-called teacher, however right or wrong he/she might be. In the final analysis, you will be responsible for having properly understood and responded to God word (message) to you.

That said, it is my fervent belief that God is faithful to reveal His truth to us in response to our honest strivings for His truth. I believe that this is true, no matter our past teaching from men, or any tradition which we may have followed.

We need only honestly desire the truth of God, and so position ourselves to be open to accept His truth, in whatsoever way He might choose to reveal it to us.

[RobbyS]

It is quite possible that such views are found elsewhere. It would be nice if there were nonbiblical sources. I agree that the assumption that the Bible was fable is based on nothing more than Enlightenment prejudice agasinst Christianity and Judaism. For instance, Babylonia writings show that Genesis incorporates notions common to the culture in which Abarham is said to have lived.

[RobbyS]

My brother-in-law lives in Lansing. Personally, I don't see how you stand the place. Cold in winter and mosquito swarms in June before it gets almost as hot as Texas.

[DouglasKC]

It is quite possible that such views are found elsewhere. It would be nice if there were nonbiblical sources. I agree that the assumption that the Bible was fable is based on nothing more than Enlightenment prejudice agasinst Christianity and Judaism. For instance, Babylonia writings show that Genesis incorporates notions common to the culture in which Abarham is said to have lived.

Archeology and the bible is a fascinating topic in itself. I've been doing a little reading and it's amazing how much of the bible once considered fable has been borne out via archeology.

[DouglasKC]

My brother-in-law lives in Lansing. Personally, I don't see how you stand the place. Cold in winter and mosquito swarms in June before it gets almost as hot as Texas.

lol...the only thing that makes it beaable is living by the lake. Keeps thing a tad warmer in the winter and a tad cooler in the winter. The drawback is the snow. I also happen to live in Ottawa county which traditionally is one of the most conservative counties in Michigan if not the United States. Needless to say it's a great place to raise a family.

[RobbyS]

Since there are many,many Americans who, when asked, reject the liberties listed in the Bill of Rights, a case can be made that there are not many "true" Americans. The real test, of course, is whether the person will, in the end, subject his own opinion to that of "authority." or is at least willing to accept the consequences if he/she does not.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Orange - Colorado vs at-large (USC or Kansas State or Notre Dame)

They won't pair Colorado vs USC or K-State, the buffs played both of them during the season.