The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[OLD REGGIE]

Luke 9:
[49] John answered, "Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us."
[50] But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you."

Interesting. Do you think that if these folks were "against" Jesus, that Jesus would approve of them?

If they were doing in contradiction to what the Apostles taught, is that just hunky dory? Or is the message given to them optional?

Was he appointed by the apostles?

Was he acting under the "authority" of the apostles?

Was any formal "apostolic succesion" required?

Let me answer for you. NO! Not then, not now.

[al_c]

I notice you didn't mention the toilet paper. ;-)

Leaves, Dave ... they called them leaves.

[OLD REGGIE]

I believe that this passage is telling us that what is important is doing the will of JESUS, and that there is no need to be under any particular earthly authority to do it.

You have said it! Of course, we haven't asked the "authority" of man to "explain" the meaning.

Did you read the posting by al_c this morning? It says essentially the same thing, from a Catholic source no less.

[SoothingDave]

Leaves, Dave ... they called them leaves.

Very good. We also would have accepted "corncobs" or "the Sears and Roebuck catalog"

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

I notice you didn't mention the toilet paper. ;-)

In my day, I've use many a page from the Sears Roebuck catalogue. And that's the truth. Our house was one of the very first in the neighborhood which had inside plumbing.

[OLD REGGIE]

First is PP's response, then that of the "reverand."

Thanks. I missed it.

The "Reverend" proved to be a jerk. I'm glad O'Reilly gave him air time.

[SoothingDave]

Was he appointed by the apostles?
Was he acting under the "authority" of the apostles?
Was any formal "apostolic succesion" required?

The man wasn't a bishop, so apostolic succession has nothign to do with it.

This passage illustrates that there are those wandering around, following God, without being formally guided by the Church. I don't think I've ever doubted this.

It is taking this as a norm for all Christians that is strange, as it obviously is shown as an abberation.

Which is why I point out that if this man had been teaching falsehood in the name of Jesus, the Apostles surely would have stopped it. Because they are the recognized authority.

While it is certainly possible to live free from error without any formal guidance, it is foolish to attempt to do so. Without guidance one can get on to the wrong track very easily. If every person infected with the Protestant principle were wise and thoughtful and prayerful, it would be of little consequence. But the world is not so, and most people do benefit from having an authority.

SD

[SoothingDave]

I believe that this passage is telling us that what is important is doing the will of JESUS, and that there is no need to be under any particular earthly authority to do it. Did you read the posting by al_c this morning? It says essentially the same thing, from a Catholic source no less.

It says no such thing. It says that if we endeavour faithfully God will give us understanding. It says nothign about "not needing an authority."

SD

[Quester]

If we were all capable of discerning this will without assistance from those set up to teach us, I would agree.

Doing the will of Jesus is certainly the important thing, but that does not mean we do not need guidance. So He left us a guide.

Which returns us once again to the idea that Protestants have that they will be led to truth individually by the Holy Spirit.

Correct ...

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Incidentally, your use of the phrase "particular earthly authority" is interesting. Given your hypotheses, what purpose does any earthly authority serve? I can see someone like me submitting to an authority that I thought was, well, authoritative. But since you reserve the right to determine is your "authority" is reading the Bible correctly, what is the point?

There is only one ultimate authority in the Church today ... that of JESUS Christ Himself. He is uniquely THE HEAD of the Church.

The task of ALL leaders/teachers called by God to serve the church is to guide believers to recognize and implement JESUS' authority in their lives. These are no authorities in themselves, but rather, only direct us to JESUS' authority.

And so, we, the Church, have the responsibility to heed JESUS' authority through the study of His teachings, which are avilable to us through the writings of the apostles, which are made plain to us through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.

[Quester]

If every person infected with the Protestant principle were wise and thoughtful and prayerful, it would be of little consequence. But the world is not so, and most people do benefit from having an authority.

Let's test this hypothesis ...

In your opinion, would you say that the average Catholic is more faithful to Christ's teachings (leaving aside the acknowledged differences in doctrine) than the average Protestant ?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Becky: I still get amazed that so many people have all this sympathy for Mack. How does he do it:) , or maybe I should ask what do I do.

Dave: Well, I hear you won't push his remote control buttons for him.

Becky, come on over here and push the button, I wanna watch the news, and besides it will show the guys on here you can be nice to me...sometimes...not like those many times...when...when...you're mean to me.

BigMack

[RobbyS]

A favor in return. We have a friend who is dying of pancreatic cancer. Pray for her.

[RobbyS]

You forget that Law talked a good game. Obviously this "orthodox" bishop was really only interested in his perks.

[SoothingDave]

And so, we, the Church, have the responsibility to heed JESUS' authority through the study of His teachings, which are avilable to us through the writings of the apostles, which are made plain to us through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.

I think we've established what the two sides believe. Now tell me why you think the Scripture you cite means that the Spirit will guide you personally and without need of any intervening instruments to all truth?

I can recognize the Spirit working through others and through the Church. All come together in order to lead me. I'm not sure why you think the Scripture means it is all on an individual basis.

SD

[SoothingDave]

If every person infected with the Protestant principle were wise and thoughtful and prayerful, it would be of little consequence. But the world is not so, and most people do benefit from having an authority.

Let's test this hypothesis ...

OK

In your opinion, would you say that the average Catholic is more faithful to Christ's teachings (leaving aside the acknowledged differences in doctrine) than the average Protestant ?

Leaving aside the amount of subjectivism in the concepts of "average" Catholic or Protestant, I would say no.

I think that someone who is faithful, from either persuasion, will abide as well as they can.

Where the difference comes in is with the less-than-average. I think the Catholic Church and its Sacraments provides a path of grace for a person to more easily become a faithful follower.

And, of course, the Faith is available in a much richer manner than in a place where only the "fundamentals" are considered valid and binding.

SD

[malakhi]

I notice you didn't mention the toilet paper. ;-)

That's what the Sears catalog was for.

As an aside, did you know that they used to sell houses in the Sears catalog? My grandparents lived in one (one of my uncles owns it now).

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

For all you chichen lovers out there. :)

BigMack

[malakhi]

Which is why I point out that if this man had been teaching falsehood in the name of Jesus, the Apostles surely would have stopped it. Because they are the recognized authority.

How would they have stopped it, considering that the men clearly didn't recognize their authority?

[OLD REGGIE]

It says no such thing. It says that if we endeavour faithfully God will give us understanding. It says nothign about "not needing an authority."

Let's pick up on what I actually said, not what you think I said.

"It says essentially the same thing, from a Catholic source no less."

I'm certain you know what a "qualifier" is. For someone who is used to using absoloutes the concept may be difficult, but try. "Essentially" is a qualifier and requires that you must do a little thinking.

Where is this "authority"? Is the word even used?

What meaning does this have?

"Yet, where can people go to find this "mountain of the Lord" today? Where is this "light of the Lord" visible? One answer may surprise you. You are his mountain! You are his light!"

"You", not some detached "authority". It is very personal. It may be difficult for you to accept that you, not some "authority" is responsible but give it a try. You may be surprised to learn you don't need "them", just the Lord.

[malakhi]

Ewwwww! That's gotta be worth a few grand from the McD's legal dept.