Posted on 03/27/2002 10:38:26 AM PST by malakhi
I've reviewed the critiques and suggestions from Thread 2, have incorporated those I could, and have come up with the following Topic list. One point that was questioned by a number of people were the names of the Denominational Topics categories. I have tried to stay with names that are in common use, and/or are preferred by members of those groups. If you suggested a change here and I did not put it in place, that is probably why.
What I would like to do is to have all interested parties vote a straight up or down on the topics as they stand. If over half of the voters oppose the present list, then we'll reopen it for further changes. If the majority is in favor of the present list, then this is what we'll go with. Keep in mind that additions to the list are always possible down the road.
I will be offline from sunset tonight until Saturday night for the first two days of Passover and then for Shabbat. That will give everyone a chance to weigh in and vote. I'll tally the votes Saturday night, and let Jim Robinson know the results.
Thanks for your participation and the many great suggestions!
General Topics
Activism Opportunities to make your voice heard. Apologetics Defense of doctrine. Current Events Religion or religion-related news of the day. Ecumenism Pertaining to discussion, cooperation and understanding among denominations. History History of religion, religion and secular history, tradition, sacred texts. Humor If at first you don't succeed, don't skydive. Ministry/Outreach Pastoral issues, proselytization, missions. Moral Issues Abortion, divorce, sexuality, social justice, ethics. Prayer Requests for prayer, articles about prayer, spirituality. Religion & Culture Religious critique of secular culture, influence of religion on culture. Religion & Politics Church/state issues, legislation, court cases, 1st amendment, the political process. Religion & Science Creation, evolution, ethical issues posed by scientific advances. Theology Nature of God and religious truth, rational inquiry into religious questions. Worship Methods of worship, liturgy, communal prayer.
Denominational Topics This is not intended to be a complete list, but rather to indicate broad categories. Catholic Latin rite, Eastern rites. Charismatic Christian Assemblies of God, pentacostalism, charismatic movement. Eastern Religions Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism. Evangelical Christian Baptist, sola scriptura, non-denominational, independent fundamentalist Bible believers. Islam Sunni, Shiite, Sufism, Wahhabism. Judaism Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Karaite. Mainline Protestant Anglican, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Unitarian, UCC. Orthodox Christian Greek, Russian, Armenian, Antiochian etc. Other Christian 7th Day Adventist, Churches of God, Messianic Christians, LDS, etc. Other non-Christian Baha'i, Zoroastrianism, animism, Wicca, etc. Skeptics/Seekers Agnosticism, atheism, secular humanism, etc.
yea I like you alot too Brian..and I think you are terribly deceived:>))
I have never run from a doctrinal discussion..in fact I enjoy them..
I have no anger at the "Catholic Caucus" desire to argue their beliefs..as you see above I begged them to explain what they believed..no takers however.
I am disturbed by the censors..those that, because they have no answers, run to the abuse button for protection..I see that as a pathetic evasion of the issues. Eithor you have the truth or you do not..
So Brian how do you define Omniscience? No one else wanted to.. (and no cut and pastes huh??..How do you explain it?)
God alone is omniscient and omnipresent. Our Mother Mary is a servant of the Lord, and she does whatever his bidding requires. And should God require something of her this minute, the Father will adorn her with all necessary power and ability to accomplish his divine purpose, even as He sustains her existence and mine by His word of power.
Omniscience, by my Latin background, would indicate "all knowing." Omni = "all" or "everything there is." science
comes from the Latin for knowledge.
God is all knowing indeed. He has complete knowledge. He knows every descision we will ever make from the beginning of time. He knows every act, every movement of nature, and nothing occurs without or against His Holy Will.
God has a Permissive Will and an Active Will.
God never wills anyone to do evil, never makes anyone to do evil, never prevents anyone from choosing to follow Him, but always gives the Grace necessary to do right and avoid evil, to choose Him over themselves.
God never violates the greatest gift He gave man, Free Will.
But still God knows who will follow Him and who will not, what good we will do and what sins we will commit, as well as our final destiny, from the very beginning.
However, this foreknowledge is not the same as predestination. Simply knowing what will happen does not make it happen.
Yet nothing happens against God's Holy Will.
This is hard to comprehend.
!!!!!
That is why we call it a MYSTERY!!!!
And anyone who claims they can define this mystery, or that their myopic understanding or theology of this mystery is the only right one, or the only true one, well...
THAT man is a fool.
And that is why I will not debate that man, for he presumes to say that he understands MYSTERY, something that only God understands.
And in making such a claim that man usurps the throne of God, and falls far in my sight.
That is why the issue of predestination, to this very day, IS NOT SETTLED NOR WILL BE SETTLED BY MEN!!!
And that is why I ignore OP and the other OP's here. They are presumptuous fools.
I've read the entire history of the deabte and realized the presumption of anyone claiming they can define this mystery.
And thus, since Catholics embrace and revel in MYSTERY, we don't get worked up over silly little discussions of things like "Omniscience."
Its a MYSTERY.
My definition is meaningless, for it is an attempt by a fallen, finite intellect to define the Infinite Mystery of God.
How silly.
Come home to Rome, Terry.
I've finally explained to you the answer you need (not to be presumptuous, but God just laid that on my heart.)
I'm praying constantly for you.
In Christ,
Brian
And did we also cause the longstanding and current scandals in your church too?
I am afraid I do not understand this statement. I think at different periods various protestant groups have upheld moral order and worked for renewal of society.
I do think that the radical individualism in protestantism has had some horrendous side-effects. Is that part of what you mean? I just want to know because it sounds like an awfully big brush with which to paint all protestants.
Historically speaking, where Protestants have spread and flourished, there also freedom and democracy have as well. I'm sure you meant to mention this first, but forgot.
Yes and no.
First, I apologize for what will seem to you to be scandalous, but you asked.
Of course, All Sin's origin is the Original Sin and man's fall.
The origin of the acceptance of gay culture, in and out of the Church, was the sexual revolution, and the failure of some in the Church, and many out of it, to fight it. For the failure of our own shepherds to fight this, protestantism cannot be responsible, clearly!
However, the sexual revolution was built upon the ready availability and cultural acceptance of contraception.
Until 1930, ALL OF JUDEO_CHRISTIANITY taught contraception was inherently sinful, and that no circumstances could make it not sinful.
In 1930, the Anglicans caved in and changed what was a continuous moral theology teaching of Christianty, among ALL protestants, Catholics, orthodox, etc.
Within 20 years, 99% of protestantism had apostacized on this issue, and with this came the overturning of federal and state laws, written in the 1800's by protestant lawmakers, outlawing the sale of contraceptives.
Unfortunately, Christian moral theology teaches that ANY SEX deliberately made non-reproductive, through no fault of those involved, outside the context of marriage, is evil.
This includes bestiality, homosexuality, adultery, fornication, masturbation, and contraception. All were punished in the OT by death, at one point or another, and all share 1)either being non-procreative, 2)outside covenantal marriage, or 3)both.
....
So when protestantism caved on contraception, they lost in the eyes of God and hearts of men ANY moral authority to condemn any other form of non-procreative sex, most obviously now homosexuality.
And why did protestantism cave on contraception???
Continued...
Basic Bible Only Christian Assumption: "With the Reformation, God Reformed his church back to what it was by restoring the Truth "
This was neither reformation nor restoration but deformation and revolt.
Fifteen hundred years after Christ, someone came along who was overly scrupulous and could not bear the burden of his guilty conscience. This man was a priest, but could not control his sexual passions. He used some abuses in Christ's Church in a remote corner of Christendom as an excuse upon which to hang his revolt.
So he invented a new false gospel to assuage his guilt and foisted it on the world. Bible books that did not fit his new false gospel were simply removed on his own "authority."
Intrinsic to this new false gospel was a rejection of the authority Jesus Christ Himself gave His Church on earth. That authority willed by God, was replaced with a new "authority," private interpretation of scripture.
However, the genie was now out of the bottle.
First man rejected the authority of God to give authority to the very Church He created.
Then man questioned the authority of scripture itself, and whether God was truly Creator.
Then man questioned not only the authority of God but His very existence.
Now man declares, GOD ID DEAD.
And if GOD IS DEAD, the final, natural conclusion of rejection of God's authority started 500 years ago, then man can do anything he damn well pleases to anyone. Might makes right. There is no such thing as "wrong." There is no authority upon which to hang any code of morality.
The twentieth century
In 1930 mainstream "Bible only" protestantism fell into apostasy regarding contraception. Christianity always taught contraception was intrinsically evil. (This was ALL Christians, for ALL time, not just Catholics. The point isn't even open for debate. I can quote hundreds of protestant reformers and subsequent protestant theologians and writers, up to this very day, to prove this was the continual teaching of Christianity.)
This apostasy on contraception is the very root cause of abortion. Abortion follows the acceptance of contraceptive mentality as night follows day. In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the US Supreme Court decision that confirmed Roe v. Wade [U.S. decision to permit abortions] stated "in some critical respects, abortion is of the same character as the decision to use contraception... for two decades of economic and social developments, people have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail." As Professor Janet Smith points out, "The Supreme Court decision has made completely unnecessary, any efforts to "expose" what is really behind the attachment of the modern age to abortion. As the Supreme Court candidly states, we need abortion so that we can continue our contraceptive lifestyles."
Furthermore, because mainstream protestantism and "Bible Christianity" in general condones non-procreative contraceptive sex, they have no moral authority upon which to preach against non-procreative homosexual sex. Thus the homosexual agenda juggernaut is directly a result of the apostasy of "Bible Christianity" on the birth control issue, as well as the reluctance of the Catholic hierarchy and priesthood to promote Humanae Vitae and the Church's true teachings on sexuality in general.
And if you can kill the innocent baby in the womb, why not granny in the nursing home? Euthanasia too is becoming widespread, as a result of the acceptance of abortion, which came from apostasy on the birth control issue.
The widespread acceptance in American culture of the culture of death --abortion, contraception, homosexuality, euthanasia-- lies squarely on the backs of those who apostatized on the life issues several decades ago. They apostatized because of private interpretation of scripture.
All because a man 500 years ago placed his own new false gospel of the "Bible alone" and "private interpretation of scripture" above the authority Christ Himself established as the protection against the destruction of the Gospel message Christ entrusted to His Church.
***
Atheism, the contraceptive mentality, acceptance of abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, the Culture of Death...pity...these are the fruits of the so-called "restoration" that was the protestant "reformation."
Yes, of course, the roots of all evil are in Original Sin.
But Christianity was making inroads against these evils till this revolt's natural consequences, over several ensuing centuries, reversed the trend.
Sorry if this offends my protestant brethren. But I will not be shamed into silence. I'm sick of the ignorance and blindness to the brutal reality of the consequences of this so-called reformation within modern protestantism, and the growing anti-Catholic attitude I'm seeing all too often lately.
The answer does not lie in a further protestantization of Catholicism. We either go back to the ways of God and the order Jesus Himself ordained, a teaching Church with a magisterium and Pope, lead and protected by the Holy Spirit, or we go forward into oblivion and the culture of death.
Offended? I am laughing so hard my software exploded. Now I've heard everything. Martin Luther causes homosexuality in today's Catholic church. Oh boy. And I thought other beliefs on this board were whacked. Clintonesque, n'est pas?
Isn't the only sola we should embrace Soli Deo gloriam!
Orthodoxy in moral theology can only come from orthodoxy in salvific theology.
It is an uncontestable truth that all of Christianity always taught that, along with condemnation of the other forms of non-procreative sex, including adultery, masturbation, and homosexuality, Christian moral theology unanimously taught till 1930 that contraception too was inherently evil (inherently means no circumstances can change the nature of it, it is by its nature sinful.)
After the mainstream protestantism apostacy on this bullwark of Christian moral theology, the floodgates were opened.
But observers expected this, because they knew that the flawed salvific theology and the rejection of authority, sola scriptura, and personal interpretation of scripture on which this flawed theology was based, would eventually hatch heterodoxy in moral theology.
Roman Catholicism has never fallen into heterodoxy on all the moral theology areas that Catholicism and protestantism always concurred, including contraception.
They are the ONLY ones left still orthodox in all areas of Christian moral theology.
heterodoxy in moral theology stems from heterodoxy in salvific theology.
orthodoxy in moral theology stems from orthodoxy in salvific theology.
They are two lungs, equally important, or the same organism.
"Repent and believe" always goes along with "go and sin no more.
The two are inseparable, and foundational sickness in one lung will always lead to sickness in the other.
Despite the terrible sins of priests and their accomplices in the hierarchy, still only Catholicism is completely orthodox in its moral theology AND in its salvific theology.
If the idiots of the last three decades had obeyed the constant teaching of Catholicism on sexuality, we would not be in the mess we are in.
The answer lies not in a protestantization of Catholicism but in a zealous and vibrant return to CATHOLIC ORTHODOXY, the only orthodoxy left in Christianity, despite the sins of a sinful church membership.
Am I off track? putting words in your mouth? Please advise!
Based on these flawed interpretations they caved on contraception.
The acceptance of the contraceptive mentality forced the legalization of abortion.
In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the US Supreme Court decision that confirmed Roe v. Wade [U.S. decision to permit abortions] stated “in some critical respects, abortion is of the same character as the decision to use contraception… for two decades of economic and social developments, people have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail.”The Supreme Court decision has made completely unnecessary, any efforts to “expose” what is really behind the attachment of the modern age to abortion. As the Supreme Court candidly states, we need abortion so that we can continue our contraceptive lifestyles.
Interstingly, the legal underpinning of Roe V Wade are the findings of a woman's "right to privacy" in the constitution in the Supreme Court Case Giswold V Connecticut.
Giswold V Connecticut overurned the last remaining Comstock Laws in 1963, laws written by protestants outlawing contraceptive sales.
Even the legal connection between legalized abortion and legalized contraception can be noted to parallel the cultural acceptance of abortion, built upon the cultural acceptance of contraception, made possible by the protestant apostacy on contraception.
Today...
Homosexual "Christian theologians" openly defy protestant theologians to prove non-procreative homosexual behavior is any less sinful that the non-procreative heterosexual behavior they counsel and condone to engaged and married couples.
Yep, Luther is at least partly to blame, you own humor at the thought notwithstanding.
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