I'm not sure who you're classifying as ignorant fishermen but it shouldn't be the prophets. Most of them were doing pretty well in the world (well enough for the crucifixion to take place in the estate of one of them. As for whether they could fool the leaders how difficult that is depends on a lot of things. Jesus said he'd be back within their generation. He didn't come back, something went wrong, whether yo believe or not it's clear that things didn't go according to plan, the apologists have confronted it and I'm not challenging their explanation just pointing it out (note it is possible that Jesus and a few followers just plain bailed, certain legends and archeological finds have been put together that show a group of early Christian went east, hooked through Persia and settled in India, where a group that didn't know they were Christian but were was found during the missionary years of colonialism). If he was dead it's easy, they were in the desert, I live in the desert, you give me over night to transport and bury a body and the only way it's getting found is if somebody builds something there, of course if I seed it with lime they won't even find it then. Even alive it's not that hard to hide in the desert, as the Bedouins taught the Germans in WWI.
Here's my base scenario:
Clearly some form of fix was in, this crucifixion didn't happen right, it wasn't on a road into Jerusalem, the public was far away, the executioner expressed sympathy but didn't act mercifully, the victim wasn't left up there litterally to rot.
Just as clearly something went wrong, the spear wound screwed everything up. Now it was, arguably, a belly wound, belly wounds are almostalways fatal without modern medical attention, but they take a long time to die from (they're fatal because they usually release toxins from the stomack or intestines which slowly poison the wounded person, IMHO one of the worst ways to go).
I'm guessing Jesus wasn't dead when he went into the tomb. At some point that night somebody cracks the tomb open to get him somewhere to recover. Son of God or not, dead or just wounded, you'll probably need some time to recover from a day like that.
At this juncture I think this is where things go way off track. Jesus dies and now the few that were in on the fix (note, these folks still could believe his devineness and be working on something like this, recent events show that people will still follow a religious leader even when the veil has been lifted a little) got some problems. They believe him, and are figuring that he'll probably be back anyway, but it's not going to go the way he outlined. Triumphantly walking back into Jerusalem in a few weeks is now right out. What to do?
Have somebody open the tomb in public. Even when I was young I was always suspicious about this. Why open the tomb. In the desert bodies stink, they stink bad. 3 days in an above ground tomb would not leave things pleasant, seeing the body would not improve one's faith (unless one was really messed up in the head), and the vomitting that would happen when the smell hits would greatly impede one's ability to even see the body. Ah, but if you already know there isn't a body it's a no brainer. Open the tomb, exclaim how it's empty, ah he is risen. Now what you have is a Jesus that still "walking the earth" but nobody can see him.
At least that's my hyper cynical explaination.
Given the fact that Jesus' legs weren't broken (1) it should have taken him days to die on the cross (broken legs makes it much harder to breath in that position because it's distending your diaphram muscles, BTW leg breaking as an act of mercy was in Roman law) there's immediately a good chance that he was alive. There's the spear wound of course (which noice, got the centurion in trouble(2) , more evidence that certain people didn't want Jesus to die). Of course then there's the fact that they cut him down and stuck him in a tomb. According to Roman law (3) the crucified person is to stay on the cross until their bones fall off. Now, if Jesus gets better from that only idiots aren't believers.
I'm not sure who you're classifying as ignorant fishermen but it shouldn't be the prophets. Most of them were doing pretty well in the world (well enough for the crucifixion to take place in the estate of one of them(4) . As for whether they could fool the leaders how difficult that is depends on a lot of things. Jesus said he'd be back within their generation(5) . He didn't come back, something went wrong, whether yo believe or not it's clear that things didn't go according to plan, the apologists have confronted it and I'm not challenging their explanation just pointing it out (note it is possible that Jesus and a few followers just plain bailed, certain legends and archeological finds have been put together that show a group of early Christian went east, hooked through Persia and settled in India,(6) where a group that didn't know they were Christian but were was found during the missionary years of colonialism). If he was dead it's easy, they were in the desert, I live in the desert, you give me over night to transport and bury a body and the only way it's getting found is if somebody builds something there, of course if I seed it with lime they won't even find it then. Even alive it's not that hard to hide in the desert, as the Bedouins taught the Germans in WWI.
Here's my base scenario:
Clearly some form of fix was in, this crucifixion didn't happen right, it wasn't on a road into Jerusalem, the public was far away(7) , the executioner expressed sympathy but didn't act mercifully, the victim wasn't left up there litterally to rot.
Just as clearly something went wrong, the spear wound screwed everything up. Now it was, arguably, a belly wound, belly wounds are almostalways fatal without modern medical attention, but they take a long time to die from (they're fatal because they usually release toxins from the stomack or intestines which slowly poison the wounded person, IMHO one of the worst ways to go).
I'm guessing Jesus wasn't dead when he went into the tomb. At some point that night somebody cracks the tomb open to get him somewhere to recover. Son of God or not, dead or just wounded, you'll probably need some time to recover from a day like that.
At this juncture I think this is where things go way off track. Jesus dies and now the few that were in on the fix (note, these folks still could believe his devineness and be working on something like this, recent events show that people will still follow a religious leader even when the veil has been lifted a little) got some problems. They believe him, and are figuring that he'll probably be back anyway, but it's not going to go the way he outlined. Triumphantly walking back into Jerusalem in a few weeks is now right out. What to do?
Have somebody open the tomb in public. Even when I was young I was always suspicious about this. Why open the tomb(8) . In the desert bodies stink, they stink bad. 3 days in an above ground tomb would not leave things pleasant, seeing the body would not improve one's faith (unless one was really messed up in the head), and the vomitting that would happen when the smell hits would greatly impede one's ability to even see the body. Ah, but if you already know there isn't a body it's a no brainer. Open the tomb, exclaim how it's empty, ah he is risen. Now what you have is a Jesus that still "walking the earth" but nobody can see him.
At least that's my hyper cynical explaination.
Where to start?
There are areas where your explaination fails, but I won't bore you with them because, if you've heard the apologist's explainations for why Jesus didn't return in their lifetimes, you have heard my explainations for why Jesus was surely dead and not stolen alive from the tomb.
It is clear that you want to believe your explaination. It will be clear to you and other athiests that I want to believe mine. Therefore, we won't accomplish much by rehashing the old ground.
I'll await your response to my proof that those who never heard of Jesus don't go to hell without a chance. After that, if you still want to discuss this, FReepmail me.
Shalom.