Posted on 07/06/2024 7:37:52 AM PDT by patriot torch
The Pharisees considered that Jesus was giving a symbolic gesture - and He told them that it was literally eating of His flesh.
So it is Jesus demanding a literal interpretation
It was also the earliest Christians - like Justin Martyr, Ireneus etc. who learnt from the Apostles or the disciple of the Apostles and lived in the period from 70 AD to 150 AD who very categorically demand that this is to be a literal interpretation
Who were the ONLY ones in the 1st and 2nd centuries who said "Oh, the Eucharist is just a symbol"? - it was the gnostics, your spiritual fathers.
Secondly,
Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed” (John 6:55).
He continues: “As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me” (John 6:57). The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.
According to YOU, if literal eating demands a physical effect, then literal believing would demand a physical effect as well.
This premise in a non sequitur - there’s nothing in the literal act of eating that precludes a spiritual effect and demands only a physical one.
We have another example in the Bible where a physical act of eating brings about a spiritual effect: Adam’s and Eve’s act of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 3:6). God promised they would die if they ate of the tree (Gen. 2:17). After they ate, they died spiritually, symbolized by God casting them out of the garden (Gen. 3:23-24). If Adam’s and Eve’s literal act of eating brought about a spiritual effect, then the literal act of eating the bread of life, which is Jesus’ flesh, can bring about a spiritual effect, too.
Now, it’s true Adam and Eve died physically as well. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that a literal act of eating brought about a spiritual effect, which is all we need to refute Baker’s argument that a literal act of eating demands only a physical one.
This parallel between the act of eating Jesus’ flesh and Adam’s and Eve’s act of eating in the garden is supported by the fact that Jesus alludes to the Garden in John 6:58. He says, “He who eats this bread [his flesh] will live forever.”
The expression occurs rarely in the Bible, only twice in John (6:51, 58) and once in the Greek version of Gen 3:22. A comparison is thus implied between the Tree of Life, which bore the fruit of immortality, and the Bread of Life, which tradition calls the “medicine of immortality.”
Just as Adam’s and Eve’s literal act of eating brought about a spiritual effect (spiritual death in their case), so too the literal eating of Christ’s flesh in the Eucharist brings about a spiritual effect: eternal life (“He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life” [John 6:54]).
In Our glorified bodies , Jesus promises “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:54). There will be no hunger or thirst for us in our glorified bodies in heaven. Since Jesus connects eating his flesh to being raised to such a state in our glorified bodies, it follows that eating Jesus’ flesh is also connected with literally not hungering or thirsting.
so what your saying is that your a Cannibal.
Comical. That’s how I describe your hermeneutics. You switch from literal to non-literal to hold to your narrative. BTW….have you cut off your hand or gouged out your eyes?
I provided PROOF that a high ranking LDS official and years of teaching disagree with your claim.
One guy? That’s proof? Only in your world.
As for the teaching part with no proof, I’m not buying it.
REALLY?
Why don’t I just mention one name of many from Old to New Testament that blow any such question right out of the water.
Moses!
Practically every book in the Old or New Testament.
So now suddenly it’s supposed to be all different? Perhaps that’s one reason we have not yet come to a unity of the faith?
You’ve not answered my questions.
Jesus has clearly explained to the unbelieving Jews to have eternal life one must believe in Him.
26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”
28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
*****
Yet, the unbelieving Jews did not get the message as evidenced by their next question.
30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
Keep in mind He had just fed them.
31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
*****
So He continues to attempt to explain to them what is required for salvation.
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
He's making it clear to them it is about believing in Him.
*****
Now comes the promise of eternal security.
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Jesus is making it clear if a person is called to salvation by God they will not be cast out.
In verse 37, the negation in the Greek is in the strongest possible terms. It completely negates the idea or the possibility something could happen. Jesus is emphatically making it clear IF one is called to salvation by God, and it is always God Who calls us, that believer simply will not be cast out. It cannot get any clearer than that.
Similar language is used again by John to record Jesus saying in 10:27-29
27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
******
Do you believe this??
*****
40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
*****
Their unbelief on what He just said is now evident. They're denying He is the Son who has come from Heaven.
41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
43Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46“Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48“I am the bread of life. 49“Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50“This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
It is clear Jesus is equating believing with eating bread. He is the bread we are to believe in.
*****
But, they continue to miss the message.
He's now going to use their reasoning to illustrate their unbelief.
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”
For the Roman Catholic to continue to insist we have to eat the literal flesh and blood of Christ they, like the unbelieving Jews, have missed the message of faith.
In NONE of the OT sacrifices was the blood ever consumed.
*****
In this next section He calls out those who do not believe.
59These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”
61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62“What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
He's making it clear His words about eating/drinking are not to be understood as literal.
He continues with the real issue.
64“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
It is this last statement that caused many of His disciples to leave Him....not the part of eating/drinking.
*****
66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
He now turns to the remaining disciples.
67So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69“We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”
Peter, speaking on behalf of the disciples, correctly articulates what is required for eternal life: "we have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
*****
Belief, or faith, is the central theme in John. IIRC, he uses the word some 81 times.
IF it was meant to understand the passage on eating and drinking the literal flesh and blood here is what we do not see in scripture.
In NONE of the five accounts of the Lord's Supper do we see Jesus prick His finger and offer literal blood nor does He slice off any flesh.
At the Cross we do not see the disciples attempting to capture His blood or carve out some of His flesh which is what Rome would have us believe as literally eating/drinking.
It is only in this passage that He goes into the discussion of eating/drinking His flesh and blood.
Recall the woman at the well.....she asked about "living water"....His reply was He was the living water. NO ONE understood this to mean Jesus was literally water. For in that passage the woman came to believe Him as did many others in the town.
It doesn't matter what the opinions of the ECFs are as they are often contradictory on this issue...and many others near and dear to Roman Catholicism.
What matters is what inspired Scripture says.
Just like how calling priests *Father* in outright disobedience and defiance of Jesus is rationalized away.
Eating of blood is forbidden by God.We're commanded to NOT eat blood.
Don’t eat the blood, the life is in the blood
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Matthew 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Mark 14:25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
Luke 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Funny that just the right point Jesus is trying to convince is the part that is twisted and denied. Sad.
You claimed the bible contained the fullness of the gospel, did you not?
I'll channel Clara here and ask, "Where's the beef PROOF?"
And YOU want to use ONE MAN while dissing my quote from ONE LDS leader?
Could be, but I think it is more likely all the extra, non-biblical things that Joseph came up with.
Oh, and THESE guys...
Bravo!
There are a few dead links in that bunch but as usual the Journal of Discourses comes through just fine. Also the links to Amazon sales page aren’t worth much.
Bravo to what is said by each individual where the linked pages contain their words. It is obvious they see that problems exist in the Christian world. Many of them glaring in their misunderstanding of the only scripture they have.
Unfortunately for the issues they take with the Bible, they then easily fall victim to misunderstanding of any scripture. Not even a sign spelled out by Prophets themselves much less words from the mouth of their Redeemer directly are likely to change their minds, because it is the heart that needs the change.
Nevertheless, thanks for printing their concerns.
But not NEARLY as 'misunderstood' as that piece of papyrus Joseph 'interpreted'.
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