Posted on 06/13/2024 4:42:48 AM PDT by 2nd amendment mama
That’s why many have split and formed the Global Methodist Church.
It is kinda strange. Like bees are drawn to honey. When I worked at a Catholic Boys Home, during the Watergate Hearings three of us counselors along with the younger Priest watched it with pizza and beer while the Boys were at school. Father Hogan shocked us when he said he had never been asked to take an oath of celibacy.
Thinking back some of those boys had been remanded to custody, and then placed in the Boys Home by the courts, after being picked up on the streets turning tricks for money to live. I didn't last long at that job.
The priesthood has been a favorite of gays for a long time. It’s almost like a Dan Brown novel in the way it operates. Well-placed gays in Cardinal positions that provide protection.
There must have been a third category that had eyes for other guys and we know where they went.
I appreciate your responses and I am just trying to share the Catholic faith and God’s truth and clarify some of the beliefs by sharing the words of the Bible.
Peter went to Rome as the Bishop of Rome to share the Good News. He was crucified and died there. The Catholic Church continued to preach and baptize all nations with Rome at the center. All are welcome in the CC, especially sinners, and we are all on a path to salvation as we grow in faith and love of God.
From thee Lutheran website (that you posted).
“Luther rejects the Mass as a horrible
abomination because it runs in direct conflict with the chief article of our faith (SA II, ii, 1), but he holds that in the Holy Supper the bread remains bread simply on grounds that this teaching “is in perfect agreement with
Holy Scriptures,” namely 1 Cor. 10: 16 and 11: 28. (SA III, vi, 5) “ Page 7 Gospel and Scripture
So bread is bread that indicates that it is not the Body and Blood of Christ. The bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ when it is consecrated by the Catholic priest at Mass. The Church retains the undistributed consecrated hosts in the Tabernacle for sick members to receive outside of Mass. If there is no Mass, then I am certain that there is truly no Body and Blood of Christ present?
Jesus delegated his authority to the apostles and their successors ordained priests and bishops to forgive sins in his name in the Sacrament of Penance/Confession. “If your brother sins....if he refuses to listen tell it to the church... If he refuses to listen to the church... “whatever you bind on earth ...” MT 18:15-18
I thank for your time and responses. I do feel that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith and many other churches are leading people astray with false promises. I do feel that if we are going to have a united church, then we need to continue the dialogue and questions beliefs to determine if the are God’s Truths. I am willing to continue if it is worthwhile.
After Mass and a Eucharistic Procession led by the Bishop of Green Bay and 3000 people praying the Rosary at the Shrine of Our Lady of Champion, I felt the presence of Jesus and the Holy Spirit!
You questioned the teaching of the Catholic Church: “Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary through the Holy Spirit, The Virgin Mary was not. The Pope can’t just make something up because he thinks it’s cool.”
I responded to answer your comment.
Maybe one day you will seek the truth and read it and appreciate that if the Blessed Mother was not a holy virgin conceived without sin and obediently answered the call of God, we may not have had 2nd person of the Trinity become a God-Man to save us from our sins and restore us to be able to enter Heaven!
If your Roman Church's claim by the Pope in 1854 were the Gospel truth, the divine words would be there and they are not there. The Holy Trinity is not a Trinity plus Mary. I don't want to see another word from you.Apostles' Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth;And in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;*
the third day he rose from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic** church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.*Traditional use of this creed includes these words: "He descended into hell."
**universal
Jesus was a 2nd temple Jew. There was the temple, animal sacrifices and Cohen priests.
Modern day Judaism is derived from the Pharisees sect and so has the Talmud.
Jesus’s prayer was for his follower.
The Jesus movement Jews are today called Christians
your comment: “The Holy Trinity is not a Trinity plus Mary.”
I agree, yet the Blessed Mother is the Mother of God, Jesus (two natures God and man). The 4th Commandment says Honor thy father and thy mother.
If you believe that the Catholic faith considers the Blessed Mother divine, then you are absolutely wrong and following false teachers and possibly breaking the 8th commandment not to bear false witness against someone.
I hope that you have a greater appreciation of your spiritual Blessed Mother as a gift to all from Christ on the cross.
The Apostles’ Creed is believed to have been developed by the early Christian community and is a concise summary of the core beliefs of Christianity. It focuses on the belief in God as the creator, Jesus as the Son of God, the Holy Spirit, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and eternal life.
In that vein, having in my previous post set forth the vision of the original church without all the trappings many now have come to expect in every form of "church", I would ask you to meditate on that vision, in that God stays the same forever -- what was the church like in its origins, under Peter and his successors in the four hundred years before Constantine built a basilica over Peter's grave, eight centuries before the lands now known as the Vatican were even walled off—the early church going forward from those who actually witnessed Christ's revelation of His divine nature here on earth? You mention
Peter went to Rome as the Bishop of Rome to share the Good News. He was crucified and died there. The Catholic Church continued to preach and baptize all nations with Rome at the center.The word "catholic" appears in many protestant liturgies and text of the Apostles' and Athanasian Creeds because of its meaning: universal, or embracing a wide variety."Catholic" is not a brand name in the Reformation sphere; it is a description of Christ's vision for Jew and Gentile, free and slave, male and female, people of all nations joined in seeking salvation through Him, following Him, living in Him.
From the Lutheran website (that you posted).
“Luther rejects the Mass as a horrible abomination because it runs in direct conflict with the chief article of our faith (SA II, ii, 1), but he holds that in the Holy Supper the bread remains bread simply on grounds that this teaching “is in perfect agreement with Holy Scriptures,” namely 1 Cor. 10: 16 and 11: 28. (SA III, vi, 5)
I went back and looked at the entire essay from the Smalcald Articles (SA) of Luther's Book of Concord, from which that sentence leapt out at you; and after reading the many paragraphs of exegesis that led up to that sentence, I must conclude that what Luther was saying there (and noting that it is translated from the original German), is his differentiation from the concept of transubtantiation. He is saying that on the physical plane, the consecrated bread and wine are just that; but in the Spirit (when one takes the Supper worthily), they ARE the body and blood of Christ because He said so—"this is my body, this is my blood", reflected in the passages cited in bold and also below, to which I've attached a verse or two to make the point more clear:
1 Corinthians 11:16-17As the Apostles said themselves in Matthew, "this is a hard teaching" (John 5:53-60.) As best I can explain, the act of receiving worthily in faith, believing it is His Body and Blood as Jesus said, constitutes the Christ nature of the elements.
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.1 Corinthians 11:27-29
So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
So with regard to the passage you took exception to above, I believe the meaning is that within the Spirit of the act of receiving in faith, the consecrated bread is fully bread and fully God, just as Christ was fully man and fully God.
I appreciate that you have taken time and given much thought and reflection to your posts. I have sought another path, but having been raised "Catholic-adjacent" in my family, I have respect for yours. And to think, we haven't even delved into the mysteries of the Eastern Orthodox branch—LOL!
Suffice it to say, once I became deeply convicted of the core human need for salvation — that none of us is without sin, and in fact may as well be "filthy rags" to God in our human follies (Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:19-23), it became easier for me to regard others' seekings and earth-constrained, "through a glass darkly" views of our shared Lord (1 Cor 13:12) with patience, and tolerance, and hope. All who earnestly and humbly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that He came to grant us forgiveness of sins and eternal life for those who believe, are my brothers and sisters.
Christ wants no one to perish (2 Peter 3:9). As long as we are willing to run the race set before us (Heb 12:1-3), Christ will continue to guide our path, help us to grow in faith, and be the lamp unto our feet. Amen.
Exactly! My church is in the disaffiliation process right now.
The official name is the Catholic Church (even though the media refers as Roman Catholic). The Catholic Church has over 2 billion baptized members although some are not actively practicing their faith and may not reach Heaven. Even in the early church, members had difference of opinions and some heresies resulted. Jesus told us in Matthew 28:20 “I am with you always until the close of the age”.
So I believe the Catholic Church was established by Jesus and He will protect the Catholic faith from error. Some priests and bishops may stray from some of God’s truths, but they have not changed the teachings of Jesus. catholic with a small c means universal and refers to all Christian baptized members.
How valid is the consecration of the bread and wine in a Lutheran or Episcopal Holy Eucharist liturgy? I am a Lutheran considering becoming a Catholic, and I have always believed/sensed that holy communion in the Lutheran church is in fact holy, and not a sham.
Answer:
For the consecration of the elements to take place, it must be performed by a ministerial priest, whose role is different from that of the universal priesthood all believers. Since the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the other ancient Christian churches have preserved the ministerial priesthood through the apostolic succession of bishops, their Eucharist is valid.
This does not mean that Protestants such as Lutherans and Anglicans do not experience a real encounter with Jesus in the Eucharist. They can receive Jesus spiritually in communion, they just do not receive him in the full, sacramental manner he intended and which he wants them to experience. These communions are not just “a sham” but can be genuine spiritual encounters with Christ.
Our family is Catholic and my mother converted with the help of Bishop Sheen. An outstanding teacher of our Catholic faith. A couple siblings have strayed away. My youngest brother after some good discussions came back to the Mass and Sacraments including Confession before he died.
If you care to share why the Catholic Church has strayed from God’s truth, I will be glad to share my perspective or some books that explain it better. Catholic church were built from the generosity of Catholics that want to provide a beautiful building to worship God, including the Vatican. Jesus established his church with men as leaders and expected it to grow larger. While there has been bishops and priests that have misused these resources (that is their sin). We have some very holy leaders and some weak and sinful leaders (just like the world). As Christians, Jesus told us to expect the world to hate us.
It should be clear by now that I do not agree with the your several assertions that the RCC is the only and most Biblically correct church, including the above opinion.
I corrected your misinformation about orthodox Lutheranism on this thread against your insistence that your beliefs are superior—aaaaand now we are back where we started.
So, I am now done.
Only God can convert and save.
May God bless you and give you peace.
I would ask you to meditate on that vision, in that God stays the same forever -- what was the church like in its origins, under Peter and his successors in the four hundred years before Constantine built a basilica over Peter's grave, eight centuries before the lands now known as the Vatican were even walled off—the early church going forward from those who actually witnessed Christ's revelation of His divine nature here on earth? -- well, the ecclesia, i.e. the community I think we should differentiate in the periods:
There is movement away from being "clubbed with the rabbinical Jews" - in light of what is happening in Cyrene and Cyprus during the Kitos War when Jewish radicals slaughter the infidels/gentiles there
br>
The part where God is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
I still don't understand what you are trying to refer to - the early Church I read in the New testament books, in the Didache and in the works of the early Church fathers
These two are good collections of early church writings
Do you mean some theology or belief system or organization specifically?
” From what I read about Lutheran theology, they reject the Mass and state that in the Last Supper the bread remains bread. Please explain how the Holy Eucharist is celebrated and consecrated into the Real Presence of Christ?”
I don’t know what you read, but that’s VERY wrong.
From the Augsburg Confession (the basic Lutheran statement of belief):
“Article X. Of the Lord’s Supper.
Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.”
“Article XXIV. Of the Mass.
Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence...”
From the Defense of the Augsburg Confession:
“Article X. Of the Holy Supper.
The Tenth Article has been approved, in which we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56 is truly changed into flesh. And there is a long exposition of Cyril on John 15, in which he teaches that Christ is corporeally offered us in the Supper. For he says thus: Nevertheless, we do not deny that we are joined spiritually to Christ by true faith and sincere love. But that we have no mode of connection with Him, according to the flesh, this indeed we entirely deny. And this, we say, is altogether foreign to the divine Scriptures. For who has doubted that Christ is in this manner a vine, and we the branches, deriving thence life for ourselves? Hear Paul saying 1 Cor. 10:17; Rom. 12:5; Gal. 3:28: We are all one body in Christ; although we are many, we are, nevertheless, one in Him; for we are, all partakers of that one bread. Does he perhaps think that the virtue of the mystical benediction is unknown to us? Since this is in us, does it not also, by the communication of Christ’s flesh, cause Christ to dwell in us bodily? And a little after: Whence we must consider that Christ is in us not only according to the habit, which we call love, but also by natural participation, etc. We have cited these testimonies, not to undertake a discussion here concerning this subject, for His Imperial Majesty does not disapprove of this article, but in order that all who may read them may the more clearly perceive that we defend the doctrine received in the entire Church, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered with those things which are seen, bread and wine. And we speak of the presence of the living Christ [living body]; for we know that death hath no more dominion over Him, Rom. 6:9.”
I mean the apostolic church before it became institutionalized into a political force, i.e. the Holy Roman Empire, and all the corruption that led up to the Orthodox schism and the Protestant Reformation.
You meant to post that to ADSUM, who attacked Lutheran eucharist; not to me, who defended Lutheran eucharist.
Apologies.
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