In that vein, having in my previous post set forth the vision of the original church without all the trappings many now have come to expect in every form of "church", I would ask you to meditate on that vision, in that God stays the same forever -- what was the church like in its origins, under Peter and his successors in the four hundred years before Constantine built a basilica over Peter's grave, eight centuries before the lands now known as the Vatican were even walled off—the early church going forward from those who actually witnessed Christ's revelation of His divine nature here on earth? You mention
Peter went to Rome as the Bishop of Rome to share the Good News. He was crucified and died there. The Catholic Church continued to preach and baptize all nations with Rome at the center.The word "catholic" appears in many protestant liturgies and text of the Apostles' and Athanasian Creeds because of its meaning: universal, or embracing a wide variety."Catholic" is not a brand name in the Reformation sphere; it is a description of Christ's vision for Jew and Gentile, free and slave, male and female, people of all nations joined in seeking salvation through Him, following Him, living in Him.
From the Lutheran website (that you posted).
“Luther rejects the Mass as a horrible abomination because it runs in direct conflict with the chief article of our faith (SA II, ii, 1), but he holds that in the Holy Supper the bread remains bread simply on grounds that this teaching “is in perfect agreement with Holy Scriptures,” namely 1 Cor. 10: 16 and 11: 28. (SA III, vi, 5)
I went back and looked at the entire essay from the Smalcald Articles (SA) of Luther's Book of Concord, from which that sentence leapt out at you; and after reading the many paragraphs of exegesis that led up to that sentence, I must conclude that what Luther was saying there (and noting that it is translated from the original German), is his differentiation from the concept of transubtantiation. He is saying that on the physical plane, the consecrated bread and wine are just that; but in the Spirit (when one takes the Supper worthily), they ARE the body and blood of Christ because He said so—"this is my body, this is my blood", reflected in the passages cited in bold and also below, to which I've attached a verse or two to make the point more clear:
1 Corinthians 11:16-17As the Apostles said themselves in Matthew, "this is a hard teaching" (John 5:53-60.) As best I can explain, the act of receiving worthily in faith, believing it is His Body and Blood as Jesus said, constitutes the Christ nature of the elements.
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.1 Corinthians 11:27-29
So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
So with regard to the passage you took exception to above, I believe the meaning is that within the Spirit of the act of receiving in faith, the consecrated bread is fully bread and fully God, just as Christ was fully man and fully God.
I appreciate that you have taken time and given much thought and reflection to your posts. I have sought another path, but having been raised "Catholic-adjacent" in my family, I have respect for yours. And to think, we haven't even delved into the mysteries of the Eastern Orthodox branch—LOL!
Suffice it to say, once I became deeply convicted of the core human need for salvation — that none of us is without sin, and in fact may as well be "filthy rags" to God in our human follies (Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:19-23), it became easier for me to regard others' seekings and earth-constrained, "through a glass darkly" views of our shared Lord (1 Cor 13:12) with patience, and tolerance, and hope. All who earnestly and humbly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and that He came to grant us forgiveness of sins and eternal life for those who believe, are my brothers and sisters.
Christ wants no one to perish (2 Peter 3:9). As long as we are willing to run the race set before us (Heb 12:1-3), Christ will continue to guide our path, help us to grow in faith, and be the lamp unto our feet. Amen.
The official name is the Catholic Church (even though the media refers as Roman Catholic). The Catholic Church has over 2 billion baptized members although some are not actively practicing their faith and may not reach Heaven. Even in the early church, members had difference of opinions and some heresies resulted. Jesus told us in Matthew 28:20 “I am with you always until the close of the age”.
So I believe the Catholic Church was established by Jesus and He will protect the Catholic faith from error. Some priests and bishops may stray from some of God’s truths, but they have not changed the teachings of Jesus. catholic with a small c means universal and refers to all Christian baptized members.
How valid is the consecration of the bread and wine in a Lutheran or Episcopal Holy Eucharist liturgy? I am a Lutheran considering becoming a Catholic, and I have always believed/sensed that holy communion in the Lutheran church is in fact holy, and not a sham.
Answer:
For the consecration of the elements to take place, it must be performed by a ministerial priest, whose role is different from that of the universal priesthood all believers. Since the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the other ancient Christian churches have preserved the ministerial priesthood through the apostolic succession of bishops, their Eucharist is valid.
This does not mean that Protestants such as Lutherans and Anglicans do not experience a real encounter with Jesus in the Eucharist. They can receive Jesus spiritually in communion, they just do not receive him in the full, sacramental manner he intended and which he wants them to experience. These communions are not just “a sham” but can be genuine spiritual encounters with Christ.
Our family is Catholic and my mother converted with the help of Bishop Sheen. An outstanding teacher of our Catholic faith. A couple siblings have strayed away. My youngest brother after some good discussions came back to the Mass and Sacraments including Confession before he died.
If you care to share why the Catholic Church has strayed from God’s truth, I will be glad to share my perspective or some books that explain it better. Catholic church were built from the generosity of Catholics that want to provide a beautiful building to worship God, including the Vatican. Jesus established his church with men as leaders and expected it to grow larger. While there has been bishops and priests that have misused these resources (that is their sin). We have some very holy leaders and some weak and sinful leaders (just like the world). As Christians, Jesus told us to expect the world to hate us.
I would ask you to meditate on that vision, in that God stays the same forever -- what was the church like in its origins, under Peter and his successors in the four hundred years before Constantine built a basilica over Peter's grave, eight centuries before the lands now known as the Vatican were even walled off—the early church going forward from those who actually witnessed Christ's revelation of His divine nature here on earth? -- well, the ecclesia, i.e. the community I think we should differentiate in the periods:
There is movement away from being "clubbed with the rabbinical Jews" - in light of what is happening in Cyrene and Cyprus during the Kitos War when Jewish radicals slaughter the infidels/gentiles there
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