Posted on 04/10/2024 5:22:37 PM PDT by grumpa
With a measure of teeth gnashing, and years of study—I became convinced that the preterist view of eschatology is the correct one. Here are some reasons why.
1. I could no longer ignore, in good conscience, the over 100 time-statements in the New Testament that limit fulfillment of the prophesied events to the lifetimes of the New Testament writers. (There really are over 100 of them.) Preterism 101
2. I looked up every mention in the New Testament of the “last days,” “end,” or “end times” and found that all 19 such mentions are consistent. Without exception, the writers of the New Testament wrote that THEY were living in the last days. So, unless they were false teachers, the last days had to be the end of the old covenant world―not the end of the physical universe. While the new covenant began at the cross, the old covenant ended in finality in AD 70 when the temple was destroyed (Hebrews 8:13).
3. I realized that I was ignorant about what happened in Jerusalem in AD 70―and the theological significance of these events, especially surrounding the destruction of the temple and the sacrificial and priestly systems.
4. I heard some Christians, including pastors, say that “The disciples expected Jesus to return in their lifetimes, but they were simply wrong.” Knowing that the disciples got their views from Jesus himself, and believing in the inerrancy of the Bible, I cannot accept that they were wrong. But it was either they were wrong, or else Christians have misunderstood what the writers meant by Jesus’ Parousia. At least some of the passages about the timing of the Second Coming must have been about Jesus “coming in judgment” against apostate old covenant Israel in AD 70, much like YHWH “came in judgment” against nations in the Old Testament―as preterists teach. That answers the skeptics who said Jesus was a false teacher.
5. I realized that if Jesus and his disciples were wrong about the timing of fulfillment of the prophetic events, the charges against Christianity concerning Jesus being a false teacher would be true. The preterist view is the only one that answers the critics’ charges. Jesus kept his word. He was not a false prophet. There is no need to make excuses for Him or gloss over passages that don’t fit your presuppositions from the echo-chamber.
6. I was interested to discover that Jesus, as well as his disciples, stated that virtually all OLD TESTAMENT prophecy would be completed in their literal generation—that is, the first century (Luke 21:22; Acts 3:24).
7. It became excruciatingly clear that many high-profile preachers, especially dispensationalists, have made glaringly false predictions about the rapture, Second Coming, and the end of the world. These charlatans (yes, that’s a strong but deserved charge) include Hal Lindsey, Edgar Whisenant, Benny Hinn, Grant Jeffrey, Jerry Falwell, John Walvoord, Harold Camping, Perry Stone, etc., etc. These men added to false predictions by Christians for 2000 years, making a continuous mockery of Christianity. Something has been very wrong about prophecy. False Prophets
8. I noticed that Christians tend to interpret the Bible through the lens of the daily news events (“newspaper eschatology”)—and have accordingly been making false and embarrassing predictions about the end of the world for 2,000 years. The preterist view restores credibility to Christianity. If they would be reading through the lens of the original audience instead, they would get a different picture.
9. I have heard Christians argue that language such as “moon turning to blood,” “coming on clouds,” “make the heavens tremble,” etc. should be understood literally. I was always skeptical about literalizing these phrases, and my closer investigation revealed that my skepticism was warranted. Such phrases are typical non-literal Hebraic apocalyptic language to describe God’s intervention (usually judgment) on nations in history. Apocalyptic Language
10. I learned that over 130 competent scholars have been identified as teaching that Revelation was written prior to AD 70, and that Revelation is mostly about the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple during the Jewish-Roman War of AD 66-70. Recommended book: Before Jerusalem Fell by Kenneth Gentry.
11. I discovered that there are over 30 passages in Revelation that (a) demand fulfillment soon after being penned, and (b) Revelation does not introduce new concepts, but rather connects the events described there with the same ones mentioned elsewhere in the Bible. Revelation Theme
12. I noticed that objections to preterism are shallow, disjointed, biased, arbitrary, and inconsistent. Objectors are willfully blind about key passages and mostly regurgitate things they have heard from people who have not really studied the issue either. I particularly noticed that my preterist posts on Christian websites were mostly answered with anger and snark, with very little actual substantive biblical exegesis. I find this quite telling.
13. Bible teachers to whom I had been listening could not give meaningful answers to my challenging questions about prophecy. Worse, they seemed less interested in truth, and more interested in defending a presumptive position. I wanted to follow the Shepherd, not the sheep. I wanted to defend God’s Word, not an institution or creed.
14. I was really surprised at how professing conservative Christians take such pains to explain away the obvious in the Bible. They can twist Scripture and think they are doing the Bible a favor. For example, Jesus said “Truly, I say to you, THIS GENERATION will not pass away until all these things take place.” We can be sure that “this generation” means the generation to whom Jesus was speaking (and not some distant generation). Why? Because every other mention of “this generation” in the New Testament is clearly about the first-century generation. Study more about Scripture Twisting in this article:
(Share this with your friends to start a good discussion about eschatology!)
>>Other than the fact that the Jews were driven out of Jerusalem in 70 AD, what changed in the world to demonstrate that a righteous God had instituted a Kingdom and sent Jesus Christ to reign over it? Nothing. It was 326 AD before a Roman emperor (Constantine) even accepted Christianity as a valid faith.<<
The way I interpret the scripture, the thousand-year reign began after the destruction of Jerusalem. A thousand in the scripture is not one thousand, but a large number, in this case, a long time.
From the signs I have seen, Satan has been released from his prison and is currently deceiving the world:
“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth” — Rev 20:7-8 KJV
Mr. Kalamata
To be clear: you’re saying Satan was under lock and chain from 70 AD to 1070 AD….and that all was good on earth during that time?
>>And when did this happen?<<
>>“And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”<<
It appears that happened in 66 AD, shortly before the Jews rebelled and the war began. Two historians, a Rabbi and a pagan, recorded eyewitness accounts of an army flying in the clouds over the cities of Israel at that time (I posted the references in a previous post.) Neither would have been influence by the prophecies of Christ.
Mr. Kalamata
>>To be clear: you’re saying Satan was under lock and chain from 70 AD to 1070 AD….and that all was good on earth during that time?<<
No, I believe he was recently released. The phrase “the thousand” or “a thousand” does not equal “one thousand” in the scripture, but a large number. For example:
“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,” — Rev 20:7 KJV
If God had intended that to be “one thousand” he would have written “one thousand.”
Mr. Kalamata
Appears and did are two different things.
The thousand years. That’s 1000 years. The major translations render the passage as a thousand years. In other words it’s 1000 years.
It’s been 2,000 years since Jesus ascended.
When did the thousand year reign happen?
If it happened around 70 AD, then it’s long over. That would have been in the Dark Ages.
THAT was the 1,000 year reign??????
Thank you.
Love your tagline.
So you're claiming that 70 AD was when Jesus returned but 1,000 years doesn't really mean 1,000 years?
Then all the rest of your interpretations are up for grabs as well, then aren't they?
Couldn't be clearer!
Regards,
>>The thousand years. That’s 1000 years. The major translations render the passage as a thousand years. In other words it’s 1000 years.<<
Two Greek words translate to “thousand”: χιλιάδες and χίλια
A numerical “one thousand” is translated from χιλιάδες (chiliades). See: Acts 4:4; 1Cor 10:8; Rev 5:11, 7:4-8, 11:13, 14:1, 14:3
An indeterminate thousand (”a thousand” or “the thousand”) is translated from χίλια (chilia). See: 2Pet 3:8; Rev 20:2-7
Mr. Kalamata
See this post for an explanation:
https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/4230383/posts?page=112#112
Mr. Kalamata
When didn't the given "current situation" fit this scripture?
Regards,
>>The current situation in the world fits this scripture: “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth” — Rev 20:7-8 KJV<<
>>When didn’t the given “current situation” fit this scripture?<<
The worldwide assault on the Church is fairly recent. The next verse adds some context:
“And they [Satan and his army] went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about [on heavenly mount Sion], and the beloved city [heavenly Jerusalem]: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.” — Rev 20:9 KJV
The Church is spiritual:
“For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest . . . But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” — Heb 12:18, 22-24 KJV
Mr. Kalamata
Kalamata, I agree with your point of view in general, perhaps not in every specific detail but I do think we are in the “little season” at the end of the millenial kingdom and that Christ’s reign has been spiritual; then at some near-future time, the visible second coming will take place and we’ll be into the eternal righteous kingdom of God.
I believe what has caused a general uncertainty as to times of prophecy is that various signs and timetables are given for both “end times” and the first set were not followed by a visible return (only the spiritual reign) so while some agree with you and me, others (perhaps a majority) are watching for the first end time that leads into the millenial kingdom.
Jesus will sort this out for us and either way things will improve, whichever of the two events is really just ahead, as it seems obvious that “an end time” is approaching given the signs apparent to all.
But the preterist viewpoint just seems devoid of hope for the world, and I refuse to believe this is the eternal fate of humanity, to be living like wild animals in a lawless satanic dystopia. We were told to expect a new earth and I believe it is this earth, purified, so that the standards of heaven (if indeed that exists now somewhere else) can be met here as well. As was always intended for the faithful.
“There will be some who will not taste death before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom” — I always thought that was a reference to the appearing of Jesus in the period up to Ascension and the immediately-following revelation of the holy spirit to the faithful at Pentecost.
And that speaks to the veracity of the spiritual nature of the thousand year kingdom. As to its actual duration and when it started, I agree in general with Kalamata that it is just a long interval of spiritual rule by Jesus, and nuances of translation have left an impression it is exactly 1,000 years long. It could be longer or shorter, and where I don’t necessarily agree with Kalamata is on a starting time as early as 70 A.D., but whatever, it seems to be in its final stage now and the world is very similar to what we were told to expect when the battle jumped from heaven (where we were not witness to it) to earth (where we are witnesses and full participants).
Since the various well-known timetables probably refer to the already-finished first end time, there is no reason to suppose that Jesus is still “years away” and that 3.5 or seven or any other number of years “must” now occur. In the little season, Satan is finished off by the return in power and great glory of Jesus. And it can’t be too soon, we’ve had it with that guy.
bttt
Bfl
Peter, the preterist view i an optimistic view. We do not have to fear a coming great tribulation and destruction of the planet, etc. We gloriously share the gospel, living under Christ the King.
10 CLUES TO UNDERSTANDING THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH
The “new heaven and new earth” of the Bible is popularly thought by Christians to be a future world of perfect utopia. In the new heaven and new earth there will LITERALLY be “no more tears, pain, or death.” But watch out on this! We are given clues in the Bible that the popular view may be flawed.
Thesis: Some uses of the nouns “earth” and “heaven” refer to realities in the cosmos (Genesis 1:1; etc.). However, the “New Heaven and New Earth” is a Hebraic metaphor for the New Covenant in Christ. It is not the same thing as heaven itself. The primary texts about this are Isaiah 65/66, Matthew 5:17-18; 2 Peter 3, and Revelation 21. Let’s take a look.
CLUE #1: If the new earth is to be understood literally, we would logically have to understand the new heaven literally also. But, if God lives in heaven, why do we need a new heaven? Hmmm.
CLUE #2: In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus ties the passing of heaven and earth with the passing of the Law. So, if the Law has already passed away and we are now under Grace, we must be in the new heaven and new earth now!
CLUE #3: In Matthew 24:34-35, Jesus puts the passing away of heaven and earth in his generation, coincident with the destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:2).
CLUE #4: In Isaiah 65/66, we see that God’s enemies are destroyed, but regular human history continues. Houses and vineyards will be built in the new heaven and new earth. We also see that children are born in the new heaven and new earth. There is SIN in the new heaven and new earth. And, indeed, people still DIE in the new heaven and new earth (Isaiah 65:20; 66:24)! So, the new heaven and new earth is not the eternal state—heaven itself, nor can it be a utopian millennium.
CLUE #5: In Isaiah 66:19f, we also see that regular human history continues after the “final judgment.” The survivors of Armageddon evangelize those who never heard of God. Get that? There are people on earth who never heard of God in the new heaven and new earth! This is not Utopia-ville.
Continue here for all TEN CLUES:
https://prophecyquestions.com/10-clues-to-understanding-the-new-heaven-and-new-earth
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