Posted on 03/08/2024 9:36:46 AM PST by Roman_War_Criminal
“where does St. Paul mention ‘the abomination of desolation’ in the letters to the Thessalonians?”
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 NKJV
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Christ described the same two events (i.e. apostasy and abomination of desolation) this way:
Matthew 24:10-15 NKJV
And then many [professed followers of Christ who are persecuted] will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore when you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand)...
Both passages allude to Daniel:
Daniel 9:27 NKJV
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.
Daniel 11:31 & 36 NKJV
And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation...
Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.
Daniel 12:11 NKJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
“it’s only in 1 Tim that you have apostasy mentioned by St. Paul. Did you mix that up?”
No. The term “apostacy” is only used twice in the New Testament, and there is some debate about the meaning.
Perhaps you meant this passage:
II Timothy 4:3-4 NKJV
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
This certainly seems a lot like the idea of apostasy since it refers to professed Christians.
Apostasy is from the Greek “apostasia” used only in 2 Thessalonians 2 and Acts 21:21, where Paul was falsely accused of causing Jewish Christians to forsake Moses (as an apostasy). We learn from this passage that Jews should not abandon their Jewishness or quit following the Law of Moses to be a follower of Christ and Gentiles do not need to become Jewish or start following the Law of Moses to follow Christ.
https://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm
This Greek word is also used in the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that was in common use when the New Testament was written. These are the passages that use the word:
Joshua 22:22
2 Chronicles 29:19
2 Chronicles 33:19
Jeremiah 2:19
Jeremiah 29:32
Jeremiah 36:32
It is also used in 1 Maccabees, a deuterocanonical book:
1 Maccabees 2:15
And they that were sent from king Antiochus came thither, to compel them that were fled into the city of Modin, to sacrifice, and to burn incense, and to depart from the law of God.
Deuterocanonical books are not considered scripture by Jews or Protestants, but they are informative as part of the Septuagint. Paul was certainly familiar with the above passage and probably had it in mind when he used the term “apostasia”. Antiochus was a prototype of the Antichrist, defiling the temple and seeking to force Jews to apostatize from the Law of Moses. The abomination of desolation and the apostasy go together. These are both connected in Revelation to the mark of the beast.
Revelation 12:11 NKJV
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Revelation 13:14-17 NKJV
And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 14:9-11 NKJV
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 15:2 NKJV
And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.
Revelation 16:2 NKJV
So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
Revelation 19:20 NKJV
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
We see a connection between the revealing of the Antichrist at the abomination of desolation and his persecution of God’s people. He seeks to compel everyone, including God’s people, to worship him and thus, commit apostasy. But God’s people will ultimately triumph over the Antichrist even though many will suffer greatly during this time of tribulation. Unfortunately, many professing followers of Christ will not endure, will hate each other and betray each other.
Does that sound surprising? Look at the animosity that often accompanies discussions between us “Christians” on threads about the end times or what it means to be a true “Christian”.
Not going to repeat ad nauseum what I have mentioned before.
You’ll just say “fake news”.
You’re such a bore!
I’ve never said “fake news” - and it’s not “news” but me challenging you to post ANY instance where the pre tribulation rapture is mentioned before the 19th century.
you have not posted any proof that has not been refuted.
For instance - Ephraem of Syria explicitly rejects a pre-tribulation rapture. Ditto for Irenaeus etc.
Not. one. instance. of Christians before Darby preaching/writing about a pre tribulation rapture.
If you have any instance, put it forth, otherwise reconcile yourself to the fact that the pre tribulation rapture is a 19th century modernist philosophy with no bexmple in the bible or history prior to Darby
thank you for responding - these were good!
Your post #103 to RWC
——>If you have any instance, put it forth, otherwise reconcile yourself to the fact that the pre tribulation rapture is a 19th century modernist philosophy with no bexmple in the bible or history prior to Darby
As I’ve said multiple times before on this forum, did Darby come up with the modern false PTR theory all by himself? Not a chance. It comes from the Jesuit branch of the Catholic church, in the form of FUTURISM. Darby molded and developed it into what it has become today, with modern theologian crackpot interpretations.
John Darby “developed” his theories after speaking with Margaret MacDonald and Edward Irving. Irving got his ideas from Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest, (under the pseudonym Juan Josafat Ben Ezra) who wrote a book titled “The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty”. Irving found the book in one of the libraries there. It was written in Spanish. He translated it into English, and began preaching on it. Margaret MacDonald attended Irving’s Church. Lacunza developed his ideas from Francisco Ribera (Jesuit), Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (Jesuit), and Michael Walpole (Jesuit)…late 1500’s. All four priests are the founders of Catholic Futurism, the precursor of Dispensationalism/Pre-Trib Rapture, as a response to the Reformer’s claims that the Papacy was the Antichrist power, proven by the bible. Tracing Darby back to Futurism is 100% provable historical fact.
https://www.biblelightinfo.com/antichrist.htm
https://www.lmn.org/pdf/Left%20Behind%20by%20the%20Jesuits.pdf
Feel free to tell your non-Catholic buddies about this:
Next we come to consider the time of the rise of the Futurist system as we now have it, and the occasion which led to it.
So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist.
Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation, two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavouring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfilment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system. The Jesuit Alcasar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly noticed, and thus endeavoured to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled in Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy. On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal Power by bringing out the Futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years. Thus, as Alford says, the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580, may be regarded as the Founder of the Futurist system in modern times.
It is a matter for deep regret that those who hold and advocate the Futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are thus really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist. It has been well said that “Futurism tends to obliterate the brand put by the Holy Spirit upon Popery.” More especially is this to be deplored at a time when the Papal Antichrist seems to be making an expiring effort to regain his former hold on men’s minds. Now once again, as at the Reformation, it is especially necessary that his true character should be recognized, by all who would be faithful to “the testimony of Jesus.”
From Daniel and the Revelation: The Chart of Prophecy and Our Place In It, A Study of the Historical and Futurist Interpretation, by Joseph Tanner, published in London by Hodder and Stoughton, 1898, pages 16,17.
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