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To: daniel1212
It is distinctive Catholic teachings that are not manifest in the only wholly God-inspired, substantive, authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels)

Thank you for not posting 12 pages of turgid prose and getting right to the point, Daniel.

You continue, however, to assume what you need to prove, namely, that the "NT church" ceased to exist at some point, should be spoken of in the past tense, and needs to be re-invented and reverse-engineered by fallible men who think the instructions (and, worse, the mandate!) for doing that are found in Scripture.

31 posted on 11/24/2023 6:20:38 AM PST by Campion (Everything is a grace, everything is the direct effect of our Father's love - Little Flower)
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To: Campion
Thank you for not posting 12 pages of turgid prose and getting right to the point, Daniel.

Actually, your argument was not only as regards the inadmissablity of women to Holy Orders but that of Rome being the solution to variant views, and thus reality of what the "living magisterium" that seemed to be a mystery to you has resulted in, and what Rome effectually teaches, and the fractured state of your amalgamated church which is half liberals (which you would have conservative evangelicals be brethren with), with a false gospel, warranted the bulk of my response.

You continue, however, to assume what you need to prove, namely, that the "NT church" ceased to exist at some point, should be spoken of in the past tense, and needs to be re-invented and reverse-engineered by fallible men who think the instructions (and, worse, the mandate!) for doing that are found in Scripture.

Meaning you continue, however, to assume what I never argued, and to the contrary I have often stated that a remnant of regenerated believers always existed (I was one), thus the one true church continued to storm against the gates of Hell to rescue souls that belonged in it.

For the only one true church is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18) to which He is married, (Ephesians 5:25) being the "household of faith," (Galatians 6:10) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers, and which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes every believer into, (1Co. 12:13) as "living stones" in this "spiritual house," (1 Peter 2:5) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism esp. being mostly the latter.

And rather than being re-invented and reverse-engineered, in order to make the organic church more like that of the body of Christ, all that is needed is a further reformation than Rome was and is willing to pursue, as well as overall. By the end of the NT, only two of the representable churches were given a clean bill of health.

And we know what they had received and heard and were called to hold fast, and repent (or else the Lord would come on thee as a thief- Revelation 3:3)but what we read in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed, not the uninspired prevaricating promulgations of presumptuous pompous prelates professing probity and protection from error.

As history shows, God has always guided and preserved His faithful remnant despite the failures of leadership, and lack thereof which today yet storm the gates of Hell in holiness with the holy gospel. This is essentially the present situational position of your own TradCaths such as who lack a living pope, with the present occupant of the chair being charged with being a material and formal heretic, and who claim that the Church that has already shut itself up since VCII and that the Ecumenical Mass of Bergoglio is straight out of Hell nor does it preach "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus."

The difference is that they look to a pre-V2 or Pope John XXIII as the true church, while we are to look to that of Scripture. We [the regenerate via the gospel of grace, of penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating effectual faith in the Divine Son of God Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) which is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27, 28) who thus are "accepted in the Beloved" and positionally seated with Him in Heaven, (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6; cf. Phil. 3:21) and if dying in that obedient faith will go to be forever with Him at death or His return (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)] while yet spread about in somewhat different tribes, have far less to lose and needful of obtaining than a church that is fundamentally perverse , thus with only a minute % who are regenerate.

In this basic regard, as I said in post 22, if Catholics actually preached and taught what Peter did in the above verses, rather than salvation thru the very act of baptism rendering them good enough (for the time being) to enter Heaven, esp. as infants, and thus never being challenged to have their day of salvation, then we could actually have some fellowship of the Spirit. (Philippians 2:1)

For I have been both as a Catholic, and well-know of the fundamental vast difference btwn the merely religious and the truly regenerate, and the basic unity in the gospel of grace and resultant experience. And with one difference being that the latter's focus and speech is that of the Lord (when not speaking of conservative values), and promotion and defense of Him, and not that of promotion of a one true organic church, much less under papal headship in Rome. Which is not that of Scripture.

32 posted on 11/24/2023 8:00:00 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)
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To: Campion
(and, worse, the mandate!) for doing that are found in Scripture.

Actually, reformation, not re-invention, is the issue, and it was not oral tradition that preserved the faith of a nation or restored it, but:

And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the Lord, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the Lord given by Moses. And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan. (2 Chronicles 34:14-15)
Then Shaphan the scribe told the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath given me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes. And the king commanded Hilkiah, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Abdon the son of Micah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah a servant of the king’s, saying, Go, enquire of the Lord for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the Lord that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the Lord, to do after all that is written in this book. (2 Chronicles 34:18-21)
And the king went up into the house of the Lord, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant that was found in the house of the Lord. And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the Lord, to walk after the Lord, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant which are written in this book. And he caused all that were present in Jerusalem and Benjamin to stand to it. And the inhabitants of Jerusalem did according to the covenant of God, the God of their fathers. And Josiah took away all the abominations out of all the countries that pertained to the children of Israel, and made all that were present in Israel to serve, even to serve the Lord their God. And all his days they departed not from following the Lord, the God of their fathers. (2 Chronicles 34:30-33)
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)
And as for your recourse to "oral tradition," as said, while men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and provide new public revelation thereby, neither of which can Rome presume its popes and ecumenical councils does, who thus must rely on self-proclaimed presumption of perpetual protection from error or at least from salvific error for its ordinary magisterial teaching. Which was not even promised to those who actually were affirmed to sit in the seat of Moses. Including the high priest.
35 posted on 11/24/2023 8:14:32 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)
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To: Campion
You continue, however, to assume what you need to prove, namely, that the "NT church" ceased to exist at some point, should be spoken of in the past tense, and needs to be re-invented and reverse-engineered by fallible men who think the instructions (and, worse, the mandate!) for doing that are found in Scripture.

Yes, that is the insurmountable obstacle; the Protestant argument in a nutshell is that the catholic Church failed for almost 1500 years and then was
  1. restored,
  2. recreated,
  3. reengineered,
  4. reimagined, or
  5. reconstructed by men and women, going in different theological directions, who were not Jewish Apostles, who had no divine authority, nor scriptural appointment, no matter how many books they wrote or sold. The best that can be said is they tried to do their best no matter how flawed their lives and the outcome.


Conversely, the highest obstacle for the Catholic Church is to resist apostasy in the large numbers of the faithful and survive bad bishops, which is similar to the problems the kingdoms of Israel and Judah had.

1 Kings: 19:18
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
41 posted on 11/24/2023 11:03:06 AM PST by af_vet_1981 ( The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Campion
You continue, however, to assume what you need to prove, namely,

Rome pronounced - on November 1, 1950 - that Mary was ASSUMED into heaven: never dying.

57 posted on 11/24/2023 5:00:27 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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