JESUS MEANT WHAT HE SAID

He would be correct on all counts and he specifies the solution. What’s not to like?

281 posted on 10/08/2023 5:54:52 AM PDT by wita (Under oath since 1966 in defense of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness)

But; it would come from a non-faithbuilding source, so you could dismiss it at will.

In your opinion.

Shouldn’t I get to decide?

282 posted on 10/08/2023 5:57:44 AM PDT by wita (Under oath since 1966 in defense of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness)

...and I contend that only is not all inclusive. If we are talking about ones the Father gave Him.

283 posted on 10/08/2023 6:00:40 AM PDT by wita (Under oath since 1966 in defense of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness)

“Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. “

Jesus teaches us more about salvation than one or more sentences about to believe. One needs to accept all of the teachings of Jesus as the Truth from God. How can one claim faith when they ignore His Truth: “but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. “

“But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.”

One can read and quote John 6 but still not understand or have faith in the word of Jesus.

Jesus is very clear in John 6:53: “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

Very clear and most protestants reject these words. How can they have faith when they don’t believe?

I understand that protestants have been taught some of the truths of Jesus, but not all. So pursue God’s Truth for your understanding and salvation. Check out Dr. Scott Hahn, a protestant minister and biblical scholar that found God’s Truth in the Catholic faith. He has some excellent books (stpaulcenter.com).

Yes it is my choice to attend Mass and to eat His Body and drink His Blood.

284 posted on 10/08/2023 6:02:18 AM PDT by ADSUM ( )

I can’t remember the title unless I see the book. Remember your comment of yesterday talking about Geezers?

285 posted on 10/08/2023 6:02:59 AM PDT by wita (Under oath since 1966 in defense of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness)

Bye.

Mt time zone, ours start probably the same time, only later according to sun time.

286 posted on 10/08/2023 6:21:36 AM PDT by wita (Under oath since 1966 in defense of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness)

—> It appears that you are on the easy path.

I’m on the grace path. Undeserved, freely given by God to those who accept his gift of salvation by grace.

The only path that goes to heaven.

—> I disagree with your approach to salvation and eternal life with God.

Then you disagree with God, with Scripture, and your path will eventually lead to an eternity apart from God. Simple as that.

Christ died in our place because of sin. His sacrifice was sufficient and the only way anyone will get to heaven. There isn’t a “good works path” to heaven. That is just unrighteousness pretending to be good enough.

It is Christ only or no heaven.

Do you really want to be saved Adsum?

Or is it the pride of self-righteousness that is more important to you?

Which?

287 posted on 10/08/2023 6:31:00 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Fraud vitiates everything)

Shouldn’t I get to decide?

Evidently not:

Improvement Era article from 1945:

When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done.
When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan.
When they point the way, there is no other which is safe.
When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.
God works in no other way.
To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.

288 posted on 10/08/2023 9:49:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

289 posted on 10/08/2023 9:50:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

Yes it is my choice to attend Mass and to eat His Body and drink His Blood.

Indeed it is.

Ezekiel 2:8-10, 3:1-4 King James Version

8 But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee.

9 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein;

10 And he spread it before me; and it was written within and without: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.

1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel.

2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them.

290 posted on 10/08/2023 9:58:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

got any keywords/

I might be able to help

291 posted on 10/08/2023 9:59:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

Evidently not: Especially #3

Missionary Guide Rules https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/topics/missionary/MissionaryHandbook2006Navigate.pdf

Learn and obey all missionary rules.
Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
Don't debate or argue.
Center your mind on your mission.
Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
Cut your hair regularly.
Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
Be neat and clean.
Bathe frequently.
Use deodorant.
Polish your shoes.
Iron your shirt and business suit.
Arise at 6:30 A.M.
Study for 2 hours every morning.
Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
Exercise regularly.
Write in your journal regularly.
Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
Stay with your companion during all activities.
Do not go on road trips.
Do not leave your assigned area without permission
Do not watch television.
Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
Do not listen to the radio.
Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
Do not participate in musical groups.
Do not participate in athletic teams.
Do not sponsor athletic teams.
Do not engage in contact sports.
Do not engage in water sports.
Do not engage in winter sports.
Do not engage in motorcycling.
Do not engage in horseback riding.
Do not engage in mountain climbing.
Do not embark on a private boat.
Do not embark in a private airplane.
Do not handle firearms.
Do not handle explosives.
Do not swim.
Do not play full court basketball.
Do not play basketball in leagues.
Do not play basketball in tournaments.
You may play half-court basketball.
Never be alone.
Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
Be loyal to your companion.
Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
Pray with your companion every day.
Study with your companion every day.
Plan your work with your companion every day.
Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
Do not arise before your companion.
Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
Do not flirt.
Do not date.
Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
Do not telephone parents
Do not telephone relatives.
Do not telephone friends.
Do not telephone girlfriends.
Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
Take problems and questions to your mission president.
Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
Obey all mission rules.
Obey the laws of the land.
Do not get involved in politics.
Do not get involved in commercial activities.
Do not give any information about the area.
Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
Be courteous.
Provide community service.
Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
Your mission president must approve your housing.
Keep your housing unit clean.
Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
Maintain your health.
Eat a healthy diet.
Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
Follow the approved exercise program.
Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
Be immunized.
Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
Budget your money carefully.
Keep a record of what you spend.
Do not spend more than your companion.
Do not loan money.
Do not borrow money.
Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
Pay your bills before leaving an area.
Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
Do not waste money on souvenirs.
Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
Be a frugal photographer.
Do not accumulate excess baggage.
Obey custom laws and regulations.
Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
Do not drive without a license.
Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
Do not drive members’ cars.
Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
Use cars only on approved mission business.
Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
Be conscious of safety at all times.
Drive defensively.
Wear your seat belt.
Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
Know bicycle safety rules.
Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
Go directly to your new area when transferred.
Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

Must be a rough job; there at the Ministry of Truth; sifting thru EVERYTHING to find just which items are acceptable to the church.

292 posted on 10/08/2023 10:21:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

Books that contain the word kolob:

This was #1 on search engine:

293 posted on 10/08/2023 10:25:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

To: ADSUM; metmom

John 5:24Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. Yes, if you hear the word and believe. And many do not believe and they walked away and followed man’s beliefs.

"Man's beliefs" like declaring Jesus meant nobody can be saved unless they physically and literally eat His flesh and drink His blood? For a Jewish crowd that knew all about metaphor and symbolism, the ones who walked away were those who TOOK Him literally and probably expected Jesus to start slicing off body parts and bleeding Himself right there. Those who stayed understood He meant a spiritual and symbolic eating and drinking and knew He was talking about having FAITH in Him.

What bothers me the most about these Catholic "we are better Christians than you" threads is that they assume everyone else is doing it wrong. Because even if a non-Catholic Christian church taught Transubstantiation in their celebration of the Lord's Supper, they would still be condemned because Catholicism teaches only their priests have the authority to "confect" the elements into the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus and make this sacrifice effective for salvation. It's why Catholicism claims only they can be called true Christians and outside of her there is "no salvation".

Do you understand the underlying reason these threads garner so many responses? From your very first post here you accuse those who disagree with you of not believing what Jesus said when, in reality, we don't believe the Catholic interpretation of what Jesus said. You insist only Roman Catholicism is the true faith yet you cannot say you have the assurance of your salvation and those who do you accuse of committing the sin of presumption!

I pray you see the light. I was raised as a Catholic but when I read John 10:27-30, the Holy Spirit switched on the light to my heart and soul and I became born again when I believed and trusted in Jesus' words. I thank Him every day for His mercy, love and grace.

294 posted on 10/08/2023 12:00:09 PM PDT by boatbums (When you dwell in the shelter of the Most High, you will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. )

To: Mark17; aMorePerfectUnion

I think most cult members would have to say no, they don’t want to be saved. If they did, they would listen to the truth. The fact that they won’t listen to the truth, indicates they don’t want to be saved.

I think they do want to be saved but on their terms. Cults and world religions all have a common factor - it's what YOU must do in order to achieve the reward in the end. Whether it's heaven, nirvana, god consciousness, Elysium or happy hunter grounds, it depends upon your own actions and merit. That personal pride is very hard to let go. True Christianity is set apart from every other religion in that it's not what you do to bind your way back to god but what God has done FOR you and which He offers salvation as a gift. It takes a humble and contrite heart to realize and accept this but it's the only way because God is who deserves ALL the glory. Praise His name (God who saves)!

295 posted on 10/08/2023 12:32:56 PM PDT by boatbums (When you dwell in the shelter of the Most High, you will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. )

To: wita; Elsie; ADSUM

Oh yes the quote from ADSUM: It appears that you are on the easy path. I disagree with your approach to salvation and eternal life with God. I will add my agreement with ADSUM.

So, shall we all pretend Jesus didn't say:

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:29.30)

296 posted on 10/08/2023 12:43:37 PM PDT by boatbums (When you dwell in the shelter of the Most High, you will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. )

—-> It takes a humble and contrite heart to realize and accept this but it’s the only way because God is who deserves ALL the glory. Praise His name (God who saves)!

Amen! Thanks be to God for His Indescribable Gift!

297 posted on 10/08/2023 1:00:27 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (Fraud vitiates everything)

Pt. 1, by the grace of God.

No not subject to personal interpretation, and not like them at all. You misunderstand. The Holy Spirit guides the Church. It may not always be the way “I” like it to be- But God’s Will is not mine to question. He’s driving the Bus… not men.

To the contrary in ignorance, the RC interprets your interpreter, from judging which magisterial level a teaching belongs under (some say 3, others, 4 - http://www.ewtn.com/library/scriptur/4levels.txt) and thus what manner of assent to provide ("it will often be difficult to determine what in fact is being taught infallibly by the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church" ...what degree of certitude they are attaching to their teaching. All of this entails a somewhat exhaustive study and one in which it can be expected that the experts (i.e., the theologians) will not always come to a meeting of minds. — Fr. James T. O'Connor, The Gift of Infallibility (Boston: Daughters of St. Paul, 1986); p. 106. http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2697)

(Faced with such, one bewildered soul on a RC forum dealing with this said in exasperation: rrr1213: Boy. No disrespect intended…and I mean that honestly…but my head spins trying to comprehend the various classifications of Catholic teaching and the respective degrees of certainty attached thereto. I suspect that the average Catholic doesn’t trouble himself with such questions, but as to those who do (and us poor Protestants who are trying to get a grip on Catholic teaching) it sounds like an almost impossible task. - https://forums.catholic.com/t/catechism-infallible/55096/31 [now defunct]) to the meaning of such, to varying degrees.

The CCC itself is not infallible, and Ratzinger stated, “The individual doctrines that the catechism affirms have no other authority than that which they already possess,” ( Cf. Joseph Ratzinger, “The Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Optimism of the Redeemed,” Communio 20.3 (1993): 479.) but which leaves the reading needing to judge what authority each reference has, and often as well as what the CCC means, to varying degrees.

An egregious example of your own interpretation is that of Providentissimus Deus, 20-21 ("For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost) as not teaching plenary inspiration, as well as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as meaning, "many parts out the Bible do INSPIRE ME...But that does not mean every book in the Bible WAS INSPIRED by God....1 Cor. 7:10-12). That is certainly not inspired....."1 Cor. 7:25.. His human opinion...again...2 Cor. 11:17.. Same thing....Paul's own writing proves he was self-aware that he was often writing without inspiration. — https://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3867413/posts?page=27#27)

Like your SS shell game, there are different varieties and definitions of this “traditional” phenomena to homogenize.

A vacuous accusation in the context of your ignorant unsubstantiated strawmen, since if you cared to actually read responses you would have seen that what I said is based upon what is documented, as here .

What Scripture and provides and is able to do simply does not translate into the idea that souls must be able to read to be saved, nor that a SS preacher must have and read from a copy of Scripture to preach and call for obedience, but that the veracity of all such ultimately rests upon the degree of Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did that of Christ and His apostles, as shown. What defines the Church, proven throughout history, is it’s ability to combat dissension, for the greater good of the Body of Christ.

Sophistry, for combating dissension means more teaching which itself is subject to interpretation, and which is not simply what is variously written by the magisterium, but as is manifested by how the Vatican applies it in action. Thus, when Rome manifestly treats even proabortion, prohomosexual public figures (with the pope even sending Ted Kennedy a nice letter, read at his funeral) as members in life and in death, then she is showing her understanding of canon law, such as canons 1184 and 915.

And rather than combating dissension, the living magisterium can effect it, due to its manner of "clarification" as well as ambiguity. Thus as another one poster wryly stated of V2,

The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. ” - Nathan, https://christopherblosser.wordpress.com/2005/05/16/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of-catholic-teaching (original http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html)

298 posted on 10/08/2023 1:54:00 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)

Pt. 2, by the grace of God.

When Catholics think of Papacy- Bishop of Rome- we are to think of the “office” Christ established in the Chair of Peter- NOT A MAN.

Damage control. I certainly know that it is the magisterial office that is said to be promised conditional ensured veracity, but the point is that the magisterial office is occupied by men, man to which RCs are to look, and actually follow the living magisterium which interprets the past. Yet required catholic submission is itself is manifestly subject to interpretation. How Rome treats such

But remind them a Pre-Vat (read “Traditional”) Pope who excommunicated a (Jesuit ) Priest who held to their understanding of hardlined EENS, and now the Church holds that Feenyism is a heresy. To note is refusal to obey the Pope is what got him the axe.

You mean you have one occasion of censure, that of a a persistent public preaching prelate making waves in a very liberal city. No, it was not simply a refusal to obey the Pope that got him the axe, nor that of lay RCs with their expression of dissent that you do not debate here, but that of a priest vocally contending against EENS so as to even reject baptism of desire, and I assume, the possibility of those of "invincible ignorance, and thus were judged as too strict of an interpretation of what modern clerics not doubt saw as too strict a declaration of EENS.

Yet your citation of this is not an example of consistent teaching, but of the variant interpretations of Catholic doctrine that are taught or sanctioned by Rome at different times. For perhaps aside from baptism of desire the censure of this persistent prelate in America was before V2, and would hardly be considered radical when such statements were made such as

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” "If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ..." (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302, during the dispute with Philip the Fair, King of France) "in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors." (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, 1928) "There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation." (Pope Pius IX 1856) "outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar" (Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV, 1215). "The sacrosanct Roman Church...firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that..not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart into everlasting fire...unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that..no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence, 1441 )

Thus you have arguments as https://catholicism.org/has-the-church-changed-its-teaching-on-no-salvation-outside-the-church.html. And what liberal proabortion, prohomosexual public figures, and what TradCaths here have been manifest excommunicated as a standard, and with whom you should be arguing with as to whether V2 contradicts past teaching.

The point is that the magisterium which RCs point more basically unified evangelicals to as the solution to disunity does not provide that, except unity in various errors.

The Schism of 1054. The Reformation years. Even to a degree the DIY American revival. All of this has emanated from the One, Original Church.

No, as one can only imagine that the NT church was Catholic.

to be Christian is to be able to submit to Peter, and in the same vein, as that found in EENS. (LG speak)

That is an absurd interpretation of EENS and "submit" such as expressed above.

Transport yourself back in time with those guys. The Church was new, and ALL that there was. Everything else was pagan. Don’t build into that later Catholic Church dogma that did not yet exist.

believed Nonsense. The Catholic Church (EO or RC) certainly does not hold that her beliefs did not exist until she formally defined them, though that is the case with her distinctive teachings. From the papacy of Peter to the Lord's supper to PTCBIH being just some.

Anyone can understand how this Church teaching would have to evolve,... For he that is not against us is for us

You are engaging in an interpretation to justify an interpretation that conflicts with a quite apparent contrary position. Which, even if it was not contrary is contrary to the perspicuity of the magisterium, which is said to be necessary due to the lack of perspicuity of Scripture, with Rome providing "authentic" understanding under premise of ensured magisterial veracity, which she interprets Tradition as providing her.

for building up the body of Christ,

Which is simply not that of one organic church, while RCs make up a very small part of true believers. As mentioned above these quotes you cite are from the SAME Pope who excommunicated Father Feeney for his resistance, namely to the notion that EENS means “We Catholics are in, you guys are out”. I say this Pope harmonizes EENS… you are your tradcath friends will claim in contradicts. Whats it gonna be?

It is going to be that this is actually an amelioration, that of affirming members of the Church those who have been baptized and profess the true faith and excluding those who chose to leave, but not defining "true faith" as requiring being "subject to the Roman Pontiff accept," to "recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. outside which no one at all is saved," in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar." Thus not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart into everlasting fire...unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that..no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

This paved the way for Lumen Gentium 15 and 16 which states

"For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.

I am sure Boniface VIII, who (basically excluded even Greek Orthodox or "others who say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors... are not of the sheep of Christ" from being sheep, would object to this. And note that the immediate context here does not ameliorate or negate the authority of this statement. Historian Philip Hughes affirms in his "A History of the Church", Vol. III, that "The Bull 'Unam Sanctam' is a document which contains a definition of the Pope's Primacy as head of the Church."

The main aspect in all the exclusion and inclusion of the EENS debate is the understanding of the above, that of exclusion of heretics and schismatics from salvation, such as that.."no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," and being the work of competing factions, in LG 14 we read.

In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

Yet not only in Catholic doctrine can anyone baptize, and not just members of the RCC, as long as they "intend to do that which Christ and the Church do" (Summa Theologica, Question 64., Article 8) which is understood in a very basic manner, but "knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved" is also variantly interpreted.

I myself can say I do not know as a truth "that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ" except in the case that even Judaizers were/are, but I know that she claims to be. But the magisterium does not clarify this, though some may interpret it as doing so, and leadership elects a pope who embraces evangelicals, among others.

Moreover, LG also actually affirms that Muslims worship the same God (not an "unknown god") as Catholics:

" the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore [worship] the one and merciful God... (https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)

Which results in RC apologists trying to argue that this does not mean what the clarifying V2 most evidently says. Advice: don't even try.

299 posted on 10/08/2023 1:54:16 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)

Pt. 3, by the grace of God.

In all this the real issue is whether anyone can be saved in submission to the pope, for due to her false gospel, relative very few, those of simply pious penitent faith inthe Lord Jesus to save them solely on His account, see past the trappings of that religious system, which deludes souls into presuming that they became regenerated spiritual children of God via the act itself of baptism, and thus are made inwardly just (CCC 1992) via in "a real, interior sanctification.. which... makes it permanently holy before God." Whereby the baptized is "formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis).” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace).

Thus, those who quickly died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism, before it became apparent they were in need of further purification would directly go to heaven. (Cf. CCC 1023) However, since the baptized soon realizes that he not all that holy inside, then unless he once again becomes good enough for a direct flight into the presence of God, and needs to make no more atonements for sins, then after death they must undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030) Which is what many RCs depend on, a play now, pay later delusion.

In vain do RCs damnably attempt to wrest Scripture to support RC Purgatory. Ansd In contrast to which is that of Scriptural gospel, that of penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating, effectual faith, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) being what is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27, 28) who was sent by the Father to be the savior of the world. (1 John 4:14)

And those who come to God with this faith are those who the Spirit of God thus spiritually baptized into the body of Christ, the church. (1 Cor. 12:13) And by which faith the redeemed soul is "accepted in the Beloved" and positionally seated with Him in Heaven, on His account, glory to God. (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6; cf. Phil. 3:21)

And those who die in that obedient faith will go to be forever with Him at death or His return (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) In contrast to those who were never born of the Spirit or who terminally fall away. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39)

Why do you apply a new context to what I wrote? I getothers do that, The topic was “eating the Flesh of Christ” and to what avail - whether John 6 was metaphorical- or if Christ really meant what he said there 4-5 times over. OK So be it. So THAT was the context.

I did not apply a new context to what I wrote, but legitimately targeted a plain statement relative to it which you invoked in trying to justify your belief in your essential eucharistic wafer god. For taken literally, Jn. 6:53 means consuming your eucharistic is the means of obtaining spiritual life in oneself. But which is nowhere taught, as instead. as shown, regeneration is always by believing the word of the gospel, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13) and with the consequent living by Christ as He lived by the Father (Jn. 6:57) means living according to His word, with the doing of it being the believers "meat," as it was for Christ (Acts 4:34) in living by Him, doing His will. For indeed His words are spirit, are life. (Jn. 6:63). Glory to God.

documented evidence of the Early Church Fathers

Which selective recourse to some uninspired words of men as definitive of what the NT church believed, versus the only wholly God-inspired record of what the NT church believed, only further impugns the Catholic attempt to justify what the latter does not teach.

the unborn - will not be punished for what they did, nor for what their ancestors did and affected them with, as is taught many times,

So ALL HAVE NOT SINNED THEN... What a shell game you liven with. Yes, there is no sin allowed in heaven.

There is no shell game, such as what Catholics play in asserting that Mary was sinless, and a perpetual virgin, for in the case of infants who do not "know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" (Isaiah 7:16), it is well established that children are not culpable for sins their ancestors did, as shown and ignored. And if they cannot be punished, and thus do not belong in the resurrection of damnation, of those which have done evil, and will not be judged for having done any, (Rv. 10:11-15) then based upon what is revealed, there is only one other class for the morally unaccountable, that of being part of the first resurrection, (Revelation 20:6) and receive incorruptible bodies and shall forever be with the Lord. (1 Ths. 4:17) Thereby nothing unclean shall enter the Heavenly City.

Cutting and pasting "your" ideas over and over doesn't make anything correct there ...

It does indeed, as not being mere assertions but soundly substantiated statement sby the grace of God, which remain unrefuted.

Just who is the "Man of God" is this clear reading of Scripture?

Those who, contrary to you, recognize what Scripture says, which here is not that reading Scripture will necessarily render one perfect in every accomplishment, but that Scripture is so constituted that it instrumentally the man of God may be "perfect [artios], throughly furnished unto all good works." Which complete furnishment of a complete supply train for every good work does not mean the provided believer will necessarily attain to perfection of character and of doctrine. Much less that it means all one needs is the Bible, which is not what SS means.

From the beginning... God has ALWAYS wanted to feed us...

Indeed, but despite your attempts to extrapolate obtaining spiritual life literally eating something, then this never happened in Scripture. Repeat, never.

From the Garden where Adam and Eve could eat everything so they could LIVE, but except that from the One Tree.

But which was not to obtain spiritual life within. And they were forbidden to eat from the Tree of life, which is not the Lord's supper, but is not mentioned again until Revelation, in which it is "in the midst of the paradise of God" (Revelation 2:7) which the overcomers in faith will eat of. (Revelation 22:14) glory to God.

The reverence of the Eucharistic Bread in Worship was done things that began in the Garden, and fulfills the new Christ life within us.

More eisegetical reading into Scripture. There simply was no worship, or reverence of Bread in the Garden, and the Tree of life is as said above, while regeneration is always be effectually consuming God word of Truth.

He fed his people in the desert with His Manna, so they may Live. God gave this people a Passover meal do that they would live free of slavery. The high Priest would preside over the Bread of Presence in t he Temlle Bethlehem ... Means House of Bread... Through his Son, he would eat with us sinners. Jesus told the world - HE was the Bread of Life, from Heaven From the Last Supper, God would Feed us His Body, this New Covenant promise. Christ spent his first Resurrected hours on Easter Day in Emmaus revealing himself over Blessed Bread.

Which again, was never in order to obtain spiritual life within. Never, despite what the Catholic mind reads into Scripture, having "eaten the fruit of lies." (Hosea 10:13)

Your refutations are all in your head. You treat scripture like your own Rubiks cube, manipulating verse after verse to give you your pre-determjned outcome-

Rather than your fallacious recourse, in contrast to sound substantiation, it is you who is manifestly guilty of reading into Scripture that which you can only wish and imagine is therein.

And not that you again have consumed much of my day. No more. May God grant you “repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.” (2 Timothy 2:25)

300 posted on 10/08/2023 1:54:29 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)

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