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Posted on 10/02/2023 11:57:46 AM PDT by ADSUM
“The Catholic Church teaches that when we partake of the Eucharist in Holy Communion, we are consuming the actual physical body of Jesus Christ (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1244, 1275, 1375).”
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.com ...
—> Catholics understand that they will know when we die as Jesus judges us.
Christians know they were judged and died with Christ on the cross, exactly as God declares in Scripture. “It is finished.”
—-> That is why we pray for the deceased
Worthless.
—-> Yes, we have hope for our salvation as a work
Very sad you do not know you are saved.
—-> I attend Mass on a regular basis, continue to receive the sacraments and have faith in the Truth of Jesus as a member of the Body of Christ in His Catholic Church.
None of which can ever save you or anyone else.
-> Jesus has Great Mercy for souls, and I hope everyone will pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet given to St Faustina.
Which can save no one ever.
—> On danger of death, protestants can receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Eucharist from a Catholic priest.
Christians have already been saved and no sacrament affects that. A soul has either entrusted himself before death to Christ alone, apart from works, of hell awaits that person.
No priest is ever needed.
The Christian himself is now a priest, along with every other true believer.
So after all that, I see you are not saved.
This is tragic Adsum. Do you of want to be saved??
Preach it BB. 👍
People that wait till they die, to see if they will make it to Heaven, stand about a 99.9999999% chance of going to Hell. Not good odds, I would say.
Can you imagine cult members laying on the bed, thinking, 5 minutes before death, 4 minutes before death, 3 minutes before death, and still not having any idea if they are going to Heaven? No wonder cult members have a great fear of death, and are terrified of Hell. They should fear Hell. Most of them will experience Hell fire 🔥
After a life of telling God they would rather do their own will, and not His. God will say, thy will be done, and plunk them squarely in the lake of fire. The cultists will have eternity to wonder what went wrong. Maybe they will always think back to the times people told them the truth, and they didn’t listen. Remember, the men of Nineveh will rise in judgment over this generation, and condemn it.
I think most cult members would have to say no, they don’t want to be saved. If they did, they would listen to the truth. The fact that they won’t listen to the truth, indicates they don’t want to be saved.
Are YOU following the teachings of Jesus AND the teachings of men?
No, no, NO!
Catholics have been taught if they've followed all the things that Rome requires there will be no 'judgement' by Jesus, as they are ALREADY gonna be in heaven.
(Well, after a little time in purgatory, that is.)
Then why do you not (apparently) want to say that Rome is ALSO the foundation of Mormonism?
Speculation.
When?
Try IF, instead.
Better yet, go along with Christianity and say, "Never".
When?
Try IF, instead.
Better yet, go along with Christianity and say, "Never".
—>>> think most cult members would have to say no, they don’t want to be saved. If they did, they would listen to the truth.
100%!
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Earth: as seen from near Kolob
Indeed!!!
Also that both groups will believe any crazy thing if it perverts the real Gospel of Christ.
Normally I just stay away from these threads because they so often turn into sort of cult mosh pits and I cant tell who is wearing which jerseys.
I do have to wonder how small that planet must be though. It appears to be pretty close to the earth yet Ive never seen it. That might make people wonder...uh, does it have a cloaking device?
My point being- those tradcaths you seem to have some affinity with, some reject Vat2 outright, some reject the Papacy since 1965, some reject the current Pope.
There are many types of dissension in the Church too- world-wide.
Like your SS shell game, there are different varieties and definitions of this “traditional” phenomena to homogenize.
And yet, We are all put to a test.
But none of this defines the Church as many might like that to be the case.
It never has. What defines the Church, proven throughout history, is it’s ability to combat dissension, for the greater good of the Body of Christ.
When Catholics think of Papacy- Bishop of Rome- we are to think of the “office” Christ established in the Chair of Peter- NOT A MAN.
Good gravy – look at the corrupt Pope’s throughout history.
We observe Christ’s desire for a human administered Church in the Office of a Pope,
But any single Pope does not define the Church.
Was Peter the best role model for that job?
We falsely think contrary to human history that the Church is supposed to be perfect, shining, and spotless.
Trusting in God to guide his Church is no problem.
We know how it all ends.
Submission to His Church should not be a problem.
To the tradcaths credit, it is hard to interpret Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there is no salvation) as not being infallible, and as including in regeneration and salvation those…
Well I have to party poop on that, give tradcaths all the credit you want…
But remind them a Pre-Vat (read “Traditional”) Pope who excommunicated a (Jesuit ) Priest who held to their understanding of hardlined EENS, and now the Church holds that Feenyism is a heresy.
To note is refusal to obey the Pope is what got him the axe.
But none of that matters. We have to live the lives we were given. Trusting in God.
Can’t go into the EENS/LG hole with you, but I can understand the harmony in the infallibility of EENS.
Yes, there is an obedient reverence that can be established over history between EENS and the recent LG.
It just depends if one wants to see it.
From its origin form Cyprian 250ish AD, along with Origen-
and 100 years later from St. Augustine to modern day.
The Church has grown- and expanded though not in ways anyone in 250AD could have imagined.
The Schism of 1054. The Reformation years. Even to a degree the DIY American revival.
All of this has emanated from the One, Original Church.
In a way, whether you like agree or not, or realize it,
to be Christian is to be able to submit to Peter, and in the same vein, as that found in EENS. (LG speak)
Transport yourself back in time with those guys. The Church was new, and ALL that there was.
Everything else was pagan.
Don’t build into that later Catholic Church dogma that did not yet exist.
Outside of that Early Church there was not even a possibility of Salvation, nothing outside but heresy.
The infant EENS was a method to protect Christ’s Church- not make it exclusive.
From that starting point, looking back then over the centuries,
Anyone can understand how this Church teaching would have to evolve,
how we would want it to evolve, and still for believers, infallibly so.
How else could one abide with: But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty
work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me.
For he that is not against us is for us.
OR:
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d]
12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
13 until we ALL attain to the unity of the faith
and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
"Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been
baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to
separate themselves from the unity of the Body.",
- Pope, Pius XII: encyclical Mystici Corporis (1943):
the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same
thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging
to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.
- Pius XII, Humani Generis (27)
As mentioned above these quotes you cite are from the SAME Pope who excommunicated Father Feeney for his resistance, namely to the notion that EENS means “We Catholics are in, you guys are out”.
I say this Pope harmonizes EENS… you are your tradcath friends will claim in contradicts.
Whats it gonna be?
Which means that your prior invocation of Jn. 6:53 and stating thereby that 'how
many times do you need Christ to tell you to Eat His Flesh for Life within in Him?
6 times? 10 times? 20 times? How many would convince you?"
Seems like Jesus is pretty dang adamant there," must be abandoned as meaning just that,
despite your double-down dare you.
Why do you apply a new context to what I wrote? I getothers do that,
but I know you are a smart individual.
You don’t need to do that.
The topic was “eating the Flesh of Christ” and to what avail -
whether John 6 was metaphorical- or if Christ really meant what he said there 4-5 times over.
Yes I was hyperbolic in my 6-10-20 times commentary… but no matter
there are some who would still not believe in the Grace of the Sacrament.
OK So be it.
So THAT was the context.
Now you want to shift that and claim Lewis and Bonhoeffer should have held that belief- or they would not have life in them-
As Catholics identify this as life-giving. Yes I believe Jesus really meant what he said there in John 6- AND at the Last Supper.
To that end I feel I am living out what St. Paul said as cited above As : the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e]
to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
It’s a fullness of Christ I feel in my life- everytime I go to Mass.
While I don’t understand why anyone would not want that for themselves, I cannot condemn them for not wanting the Eucharist- AS the FLESH and Blood of Christ.
And my example of a baptized infant, dying without ever receiving the Eucharist would not be penalized-JUST the same.
Now having realized that fullness of Eucharistic Grace in my life…
AND THEN I walk away from that… yeah I’ve got splaining to do why I walked away from Christ in that manner- even if I still keep the other commandments.
So "somehow it was ("must have been") which recourse to ambiguity is one of the valid grievances against V2 by TradCaths.
Well of course I mean’t “must have been” in a less threatening manner…
afterall it was in reference to the documented evidence of the Early Church Fathers and their reverence for the Eucharist… with quotes from Ignatius such as:
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life.
I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST,
who was of the seed of David; and for drink I DESIRE HIS BLOOD,
which is love incorruptible. (Letter to the Romans 7:3)
Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God:
FOR THERE IS ONE FLESH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,
and one cup IN THE UNION OF HIS BLOOD; one ALTAR,
as there is one bishop with the presbytery… (Letter to the Philadelphians 4:1)
They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,
because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrnians 7:1)
My point was that Jesus words there were real and meant for his Presence to be with us always- physically with us on the Altar. If I believe them to be real as well, then the Blessed Sacrament brings Christ physically into my body…The one who does not believe then I think they are not bound by this Sacrament.
Really?! Meaning not only that Jn. 6:53 only applies to those who believe in the Catholic "Real Presence" but by extension, all other "verily verily" statements as well.
But then a young Baptized Child who dies, without ever receiving the Eucharist, would not be sent outside the Body of Christ.
The the Eucharist has nothing to do with it, since those who are not morally culpable of sin - which includes the unborn - will not be punished for what they did, nor for what their ancestors did and affected them with, as is taught many times,
So ALL HAVE NOT SINNED THEN...
What a shell game you liven with.
Yes, there is no sin allowed in heaven.
Where? From your persistent comprehension that teaching in 1 Co. 11, wih its blatant ignorance of context and persistence eisegesis, which I labored for some time (typing with my stiff arthritic fingers) just 2 days ago showing you, only to have you ignore such again!
Cutting and pasting "your" ideas over and over doesn't make anything correct there ...
It's just your confirmation bias- extra-biblical and NO authority but over yourself.
Why can't you grasp that.
Scripture materially provides, "the man of God may be perfect,
throughly furnished unto all good works,"(2 Timothy 3:17)
though from Adam and Eve onward,
God has always provided what is necessary for man to obey Him, ...
Really Jim? Really?
JUST WHO THE HELL IS THE "MAN OF GOD"?
Is it you? Are YOU the "man of God"?
Is it the Lutheran ?
Is it the Calvinist?
We know for sure though it isn't the Catholic, huh?
Is it the DIY Protestant who grasps a but of Christianity beyond their false SS faith?
Just who is the "Man of God" is this clear reading of Scripture?
Exegete that when you get a moment...
and that somehow the Eucharistic Mass just popped up out of nowhere, illegitimately.
No, that is not even logical, but like other examples of ignorance, this was a later development, for as shown, nowhere interpretative of the gospels was the Lord's supper taught or exampled was being a sacrifice for sins and and spiritual food as conducted and confected by Catholic priests. And seeing as you persist in posting the same polemics, blithely ignoring refutations of such, why should I take more hours typing more on the same.
Your refutations are all in your head.
You treat scripture like your own Rubiks cube, manipulating verse after verse to give you your pre-determjned outcome-
As if there is some secret code to be solved.
It's a man made tradition unattached to ANY Apostolic teaching.
You think you can exgete around the fact that Eucharistic Worship
was foundational abd central in the New Testament Church.
The evidence is there.
You twisted scripture and yourself in such a large knot-
you cannot even see what God is trying to give you.
And it's NOT a book.
From the beginning...
God has ALWAYS wanted to feed us...
From the Garden where Adam and Eve could eat everything so they could LIVE, but except that from the One Tree.
He fed his people in the desert with His Manna, so they may Live.
God gave this people a Passover meal do that they would live free of slavery.
The high Priest would preside over the Bread of Presence in t he Temlle
Bethlehem ... Means House of Bread...
Through his Son, he would eat with us sinners.
Jesus told the world - HE was the Bread of Life, from Heaven
From the Last Supper, God would Feed us His Body, this New Covenant promise.
Christ spent his first Resurrected hours on Easter Day in Emmaus revealing himself over Blessed Bread.
The reverence of the Eucharistic Bread in Worship was done things that began in the Garden,
and fulfills the new Christ life within us.
It's really not rocket science.
It appears that you are on the easy path.
I disagree with your approach to salvation and eternal life with God.
Then why do you not (apparently) want to say that Rome is ALSO the foundation of Mormonism?
Anything truthful in Catholicism would be considered true by any believers.
The foundations of the Church of Jesus Christ are direct from the presence of God through direct revelation beginning with the first vision of Joseph Smith up to and including today.
You and the evangelical community cannot say the same. You are descended directly from the Church in Rome.
To add to the list, all of you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what classifies as being saved. The Catholic Church is much closer to truth and reality than the community that has split from them.
You have been taught by the precepts of man, to desire an easy Grace foreign to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Frankly I’m impressed by writings of ADSUM who understands that The Catholic Church knows that concept is false.
...and here’s a quote from ADSUM on that very subject In addition ADSUM is a willing conversationist unlike a few on this thread that are not deserving of a reply as their attitude is one of derision and divisiveness. That demeanor is a conversation killer right out of the gate and I’m quite sure they aren’t interested in conversation, because their Doctrine cannot stand scrutiny.
Oh yes the quote from ADSUM:
It appears that you are on the easy path.
I disagree with your approach to salvation and eternal life with God.
I will add my agreement with ADSUM.
Absolutely, have you got a better one? Speaking of leading questions?
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