Posted on 03/30/2023 6:43:37 PM PDT by ADSUM
It's not sola scriptura. It's not sola fide. It's a doctrine most people don't even know by name.
No room for purgatory there ,huh? For the believer, either in the body or present with the Lord. Thanks for reinforcing what I said.
“In discussions Catholics go on
Weird tangents citing obscure text
out of context.”
That’s true, and it’s annoying. What is worse is when they quote mere mortals as having preeminence over Scripture.
Read later.
That's not a "problem" at all!
I assume this is some kind of argument against sola scriptura.
Bottom line: I'd rather depend on what God says in His Word (and I what I am led by the Holy Spirit to know and understand) than whatever it is that some "church" magistrate declares at the moment.
Excellent remark!
All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all: yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.
First, not the word "may" in " may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them" and the context. The word "may" is not will, and "a sufficient understanding of them" is as regards "salvation," not all that can be known. And with the general context being that of understanding, not motivation, which Biblical preaching is especially the means of, as seen in Scripture. Nor is it even said that in SS that the ability to read Scripture is essential to being saved, and for hundreds of years SS missionaries have evangelized souls that do not even know how to read, or at least did not have a copy of the Bible in their own language.
"And "due use of the ordinary means" does not mean only the Bible can be used, which Chalk acknowledges is what "ordinary means" is usually understood as meaning, but which is usually ignored by attackers of SS. Meanwhile the author ignores the basic unity among major classic evangelical commentaries (such as Henry, Barnes, Clarke, Gill, Robert Jamieson; A.R. Fausset; David Brown, Keil & Delitzsch) as regards salvation. In which what is upheld is that of penitent, effectual; heart-purifying, regenerating faith, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) being what is is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27,28) who was sent by the Father to be the savior of the world. (1 John 4:14) And by which faith the redeemed soul is "accepted in the Beloved" and positionally seated with Him in Heaven, on His account, glory to God. (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6; cf. Phil. 3:21) And those who die in that obedient faith will go to be forever with Him at death or His return (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) In contrast to those who were never born of the Spirit. Which relative few Catholics sadly have.
In which as regards salvation, the only major difference is on the issue of predestination, an issue in which the Dominicans and the old Jesuits were so opposed that all the pope could do was enjoin a truce of tolerance.
I can add to this the issue of OSAS, though unlike today's age, for such as the above "saving faith" meant preserving faith, not a one-time profession who life does not match up, yet which is what Rome effectively effectually conveys in affirming manifest liberal Catholics as members due to their baptism.
. the most foundational of Protestant doctrines is one whose more formal name isn’t known even to most Protestants. I’m talking about the doctrine of perspicuity, or what is more frequently now called the doctrine of clarity...... Perhaps they get hung up over salvation, baptism, the Eucharist, female pastors, or proscribed sexual behaviors. They debate, they argue, they appeal to various proof-texts to support their interpretation....Clarity is Protestantism, and without it, the entire religious system collapses. Someone has to do the interpreting of the Bible. In the Catholic tradition, it is the Magisterium, who has been given this privilege by Christ himself. In Protestantism, it is ultimately every . . . single . . . Christian. Each Protestant is his own magisterium..... For those Protestants who still subscribe to sola scriptura (many don’t—another obvious problem), perspicuity has proved incapable of determining the Bible’s supposed “plain meaning.”
Which is simply an invalid argument, since the term "Protestant" has become far too broad as to be used in this context, as it refers to everything from JW's and other cults with effectively hold to the RC model for unity (leadership presuming ensured veracity) to those who most strongly esteem Scripture as the accurate and wholly inspired word of God, with its basic literal hermeneutic, who have long testified to being far more conservative and unified in polled core beliefs and values than overall those whom Rome counts as members in life and in death. Which even includes proabortion prohomosexual public figures whom the author (who effectively rebukes most RCs here) must own as members.
And indeed, since the RC argument is based upon the premise that the Magisterium is the solution to division, then the author should admit, that as one poster stated,
The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. ” - Nathan, https://christopherblosser.wordpress.com/2005/05/16/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of-catholic-teaching (original http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html) The fact is that division is seen under the Roman model as well as SS, the difference only being a matter of degrees.
Thus you have the many groups I listed in post 75.
Thus the SS claim of "clarity" is limited in scope and depth, while unity in fractured Roman Catholicism is largely due to her inclusion of disparate groups of Catholics as being members, and for whom doctrinal purity is not a major issue (unlike the divided RCs) in contrarst to Bible Christians whose esteem of doctrine (as well as style) leads to formal divisions, while still be more unified in conservative beliefs than RCs overall.
Christians require a different paradigm for interpreting the Bible, one that is coherent, that is historically and intellectually defensible, and that drives us to Christ rather than into ourselves. And that model exists in the Catholic Church.
Which as shown, as the solution is a theory and a delusion, with Catholicism being more fractured as well as in unity with liberals as time goes on, with a pope that is even denounced by those who contend they are true Catholics. And FR TradCath opinions of him include, "Bergoglio" the Impopester, a fraud of a pope, an apostate, a material and formal heretic who preaches and authors heresy; who is not a Catholic but a protestant, who does not believe in Hell, "whose Ecumenical Mass is straight out of Hell; leader of his schism, part of the V2 revolution within the Catholic Church that has already shut itself up since VCII and no longer proclaims, Christ the Sovereign King to all nations; nor does it preach, “extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” "we are all the victims of a massive Modernist coup d’état, for which our poor, beleaguered pontiff is nothing more than the ultimate poster boy."
Thus the RM even stated, "If it is the general consensus here at the FR Religion Forum that the Pope is NOT a Catholic, then yes posts about him will not qualify for the Catholic caucus label."
Thus we have, Is Catholicism about to break into three?
Archbishop Viganò: We Are Witnessing Creation of a ‘New Church ’
The SSPX's Relationship with Francis: Is it Traditional? post #6
Is the Catholic Church in De Facto Schism?
The Impossibility of Judging or Deposing a True Pope...If Francis is a true Pope …
Division among those holding to basic salvific Truth and conservative values is better than unity in a false gospel and liberalism, whom Rome embraces.
For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. (Ecclesiastes 9:4)
I was told (when I was young an ignorant of the Bible [because all I knew was the catechism of the RCC - so what I "knew" were lies]) that I couldn't read the Bible because I couldn't understand the Bible without a "priest" interpreting it for me.
I thank God that I left that path to destruction decades ago.
Opening with irony is not a good way to set the stage for an argument that relies on reasoning.
Plus: As many "RCC"ers do, you are confusing the variety of "religions" (of which RCC is one) with "relationship." Christianity is a relationship with someone, not a relationship to a building with a name on it.
Which confuses cause and effect, as contrary to both salvation by merit as well as by an inert faith, it is penitent, effectual; heart-purifying, regenerating faith, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) is what is is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27,28) who was sent by the Father to be the savior of the world. (1 John 4:14) And by which faith the redeemed soul is "accepted in the Beloved" and positionally seated with Him in Heaven, on His account, glory to God. (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6; cf. Phil. 3:21) And those who die in that obedient faith will go to be forever with Him at death or His return (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) In contrast to those who were never born of the Spirit or who terminally fall away. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39) For as with the palsied man in Mark 2:2-11 in which forgiveness went together with healing so that the Lord could ask, "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? " (Mark 2:9) so that the cause and the effect could be used interchangeably, so faith and works go together as cause and effect, yet they are not be confused, for as said, it is heart-purifying faith (Acts 15:9) that is the effect, and is counted for righteousness, (Rm. 4:5) with acceptance in the Beloved (Eph. 1:6) being on His account, while works justify the believer as being a believer.
Thus with nothing of works to offer, but a contrite heart which affirmed Christ as Lord, and with faith in the mercy of God in Him, the Lord could say,
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43)
Likewise in looking forward to the the mercy of God in Christ,
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14)
And to lost souls effectual; heart-purifying, regenerating faith was realized (before baptism) as per: And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
If this is NOT true, then what is the alternative story line??
Read on...
... each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does.
Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer;
but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
wishful thinking.
Wrong question.
What doesn’t line up with CatholicISM? is better.
Now this kinda stuff is what upsets Mormons; but I do NOT understand why...
Trinity: found in the Book of MORMON ----------- rejected in the Doctrines and Covenants Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. (Alma 11:28-29) ...and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11:44) ...doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21) ...praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7) ...power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son--And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, (Mosiah 15:3-5) ...of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them. (Ether 2:8) According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest. (Section 121:32) And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them--Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths--then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Section 132:18-20) Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods. (Section 132:37)
"Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name." (3 Nephi 9:15)
"And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you. Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them--Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them. And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water. And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one...And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one." (3 Nephi 11:22-27, 36)
I guess the Protestants could put out similar stuff attacking the Catholics...and be every bit as correct.
Somewhere in the Bible it chastises those who try to follow a bunch of Old Testament rules as having fallen from Grace...it forgets that Jesus on the Cross fulfilled the Law and the New Covenant says that accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and Loving God with every fiber of your being - and loving your neighbor, is enough because “Where there is love, there is no harm - and that in and of itself fulfils the INTENT of the Law...it doesn’t take fancy buildings and rich clothing and special ceremonies...with modern day Pharisees...we have priests when we’re supposed to have teachers.
All of which is sent down from above - the magistrate - and composed to keep all of the ignorant followers on "the same page" while the deception continues... none of which is composed with the peculiar needs of the local congregation in mind. RCC "church" uppity-ups can't even give their local leaders the opportunity to independently explore the application of Scripture for their congregants.
AND - It was my experience that the three passages were read but not necessarily studied, examined, or used for the "homily" - In the "homily" the "priest" would make jokes and talk about just about nothing.
Well; there IS a third state:
Psalm 13:3
Look on me and answer, Lord my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,Psalm 90:5
Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death— they are like the new grass of the morning:Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 11:12-13
His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery:We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
You summed it up well. I could have saved the last few minutes, if I had only read to #64 first.
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