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Could you ever prove a miracle to a non-believer?
Hotair via New York Times ^ | 12/25/2022

Posted on 12/25/2022 3:02:47 PM PST by SeekAndFind

[EXCERPT ONLY]

In 2009, on a grant from the John Templeton Foundation, the Browns flew to Mozambique to investigate the healing claims of Global Awakening and Iris Global, two ministries focused on healing and revival. They brought audiometry equipment and eye charts to test people who requested prayer for deafness and blindness. The sample size was small — they tested 24 people — but they found statistically significant improvement beyond placebo effects and hypnosis.

“I was standing right there next to this woman who could not tell how many fingers were held up when you were a foot in front of her,” Candy Brown told me. “Then five minutes later, she’s reading an eye chart with a smile on her face.” She and her colleagues published the results in The Southern Medical Journal — not a prestigious publication but a respectable one with peer review — and she drew on the research for her 2012 book, “Testing Prayer.”

Skeptics complained about the Browns’ methods and field conditions. They pointed out that the hearing tests were in a noisy setting, there was no control group and test subjects would naturally want to please those who prayed for them by showing results. “That simple trick explains why both hearing and sight appears to have dramatically improved among these poor, superstitious villagers,” one critic declared. (The study explained in detail how the researchers did their best to weed out false data.)

If you want to evaluate people’s experiences at a revival in rural Africa, you probably need to give up on double-blind studies in a perfectly controlled environment. But let’s imagine for a moment that researchers could meet such standards (and that an all-powerful deity humors us and submits to this scrutiny). They might persuade skeptics that something strange happened. But is there any evidence that would persuade a nonbeliever that God was behind it — that we do not live in a closed system in which all causation is a matter of natural laws?


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Religion & Science; Theology
KEYWORDS: miracle; nonbelievers; proof
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To: Elsie

Luke 4:12


101 posted on 12/26/2022 6:00:32 PM PST by NorthMountain (... the right of the peopIe to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed)
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To: Elsie; NorthMountain

RE: I find it strange that the WHOLe sentence is very seldom quoted,

The occasion where the Israelites tested God at Massah ( as you indicate) is found in Exodus 17. Let us remember, that this was AFTER the 10 supernatural plagues visited on Egypt, after passover, after the parting of the Red Sea, after being guided by God’s pillar of cloud and fire by day and by night, after God fed them in the wilderness with Manna.

As God was leading Moses and His people toward the Promised Land, they camped at a place where there was no water. The Israelites’ immediate reaction was to grumble against God and quarrel with Moses (Exodus 17:1–3). Their lack of trust in God to take care of them is evident in their accusations toward Moses: “They said, ‘Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children and livestock die of thirst?’” (Exodus 17:3). The Israelites were obviously in a situation where they needed God to intervene.

The point at which they tested God, though, is when doubt and fear overtook them and they came to the conclusion that God had abandoned them (see Exodus 17:7). They questioned God’s reliability because He was not meeting their expectations.


102 posted on 12/26/2022 6:04:50 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: PeterPrinciple

RE: Most of the time Jesus says, let’s keep this between you and me.

To me, it was a matter of timing.

At that time, Jesus did not want people just focusing on the miracles He performed, but rather the message He proclaimed and the death He was going to die.

For example, after healing a man of leprosy (Mark 1:41-42), “Jesus sent him away at once with a strong warning: ’see that you don’t tell this to anyone...’” (Mark 1:43-44).

It would seem that Jesus would want everyone to know about the miracle. But Jesus knew that publicity over such miracles might hinder His mission and divert public attention from His message.

Mark records that this is exactly what happened. In this man’s excitement over his being miraculously healed of leprosy, he disobeyed. As a result, Christ had to move His ministry away from the city and into the desert regions (Mark 1:45) “As a result, Jesus could no longer enter a town openly but stayed outside in lonely places. Yet the people still came to Him from everywhere.”

But in some cases, Jesus DID use His public miracles as a way of telling people to believe in Him ( see John 10: 36-38 ).


103 posted on 12/26/2022 6:14:36 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
Thanks for your lengthy and measured response!

Re. "if":

Yes, usage of the word "if" rather than just giving a "yes/no" answer or stating facts does suggest equivocation. Using "if" provides "wiggle room," which I don't like.

[...] don’t know why you would say that the word of God is confusing when it clearly teaches [...]

Yes, you're right: There is no confusion about the meaning of the Word of God! No theologians or Biblical scholars have any disagreements about that! No experts have ever quibbled about, e.g., the placement of a single comma - which can totally change the meaning of a given verse. (E.g., the Jehovah's Witness claim Christ said to the Good Thief on the cross next to him: "Verily I say to you this day, you shall be in Heaven with me..." rather than "Verily I say to you, this day you shall be in Heaven with me...") All scholars are in total agreement about the meaning of the Word of God!

/mordant sarcasm

Yet in the subsequent paragraphs of your response, you admit that there is indeed confusion and dissent.

You recommend "study" to "gain satisfactory knowledge." But the average Joe can never hope to attain even a fraction of the arsenal of knowledge (or pseudo-knowledge) that, e.g., the Mormons have accumulated over more than a century to bolster their (in my humble opinion - which I, as a layperson, can't hope to actually prove) false interpretation of the Bible. How can I hope to compete and win against an established organization that has had literally hundreds of years to refine and polish their (false) doctrines?

In the realm of Science & Technology - in contrast - the "proof is in the pudding." Either a rocket successfully launches, or it fails. Either a space probe successfully swings by Pluto, or it fails to do so. In that realm, we laymen can thus rely upon the simple evidence of our eyes and ears to determine whose interpretation of physical laws is correct.

(The court is still out on the issue of, e.g., Global Warming - i.e., in this instance, the issue is too complex AND doesn't permit experimentation. "Reproduceability" is unfortunately out of the question because we have only one Earth, and therefore can't conduct a "controlled experiment.")

I don’t understand your question regarding “which version” of the Bible.

Your counter-arguments aren't valid, because the various translations do, indeed, depart from each other on important points. We laymen thus have no means of determining which version to accept and rely upon. As pointed out above, the JW version (due to the [mis-]placement of a single comma) is used to bolster their arcane interpretation and subsequent bizarre theology. The Mormons likewise have a translation that in subtle fashion bolsters their sect.

I re-iterate: Unlike in the real world, where we can determine which faction correctly interprets reality by successfully landing on the Moon - in the realm of theology, where we have only 1) sacred scriptures and 2) miracle-working to determine if a given prophet is true, the laymen cannot rely on "1" - and "2" (miracles) don't happen any more.

Regards,

104 posted on 12/27/2022 12:31:22 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: NorthStarOkie
That miracles would cease can be inferred from the fact that the only ones who performed miracles were those who were given the special gift of the Holy Spirit. When they died the ability to perform signs, wonders and miracles died with them.

And what can we moderns thus infer from this cessation of miracles? What is the import of that observation? What does, e.g., the Bible say about that?

Regards,

105 posted on 12/27/2022 12:33:44 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: tjd1454
To give an example, suppose that during a walk in the woods, you were to suddenly and inexplicably come across a wristwatch laying on the path. Would you spontaneously exclaim: “There must have been some amazing confluence of minerals in the soil, moisture, etc. along with perhaps a perfectly-timed lightning bolt that “created” this watch!”

I would remark, "This 'thing' - whatever it is - is apparently incapable of reproducing!"

(Grant me that I am permitted to take the watch into a lab and observe it long enough - to place it on growth media, etc. - to come to this conclusion.)

The mere fact that it cannot reproduce itself - that it thus lacks one of the basic properties or earmarks of life - is already a strong indication that it is a mere artifact, i.e., that it was MADE.

Whereas: A living organism is far more likely to be the product of countless generations of evolution over billions of years.

Regards,

106 posted on 12/27/2022 12:39:41 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: SeekAndFind
If the miracle worker is teaching something contrary to God’s Word, then his miracles, no matter how convincing they seem, are a demonic delusion.

Is your "test" relevant or truly applicable, in today's world?

Do we have examples of miracle-workers walking around today, spouting teachings that are (according to you) either "in accordance with" or "contrary to" God's word?

1. Please cite examples of miracle-workers whose teachings are contrary!

2. Please cite examples of miracle-workers whose teachings are in accordance!

How can I otherwise test your "test" to determine if your test is valid - if there aren't any concrete examples of 1 and 2?

Regards,

107 posted on 12/27/2022 12:44:49 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: Elsie
Deuteronomy 6:16 Do not test the LORD your God as you tested Him at Massah. I find it strange that the WHOLe sentence is very seldom quoted,

Because it's ambiguous!

Does it mean:

"Do not test the LORD! To be clear: By 'test,' I mean ONLY doing that thing you did at Massah!"

OR

""Do not test the LORD in the manner in which you tested Him at Massah! Other tests - differing from the test at Massah - are perfectly acceptable, however."

The problem with relying upon scripture which is not susceptible to Q&A! The problem with not being able to ask "Wait a minute! What exactly do you mean by that?"

Regards,

108 posted on 12/27/2022 12:49:15 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: tjd1454
It must first be pointed out that it is false to presume that the presence of many possible answers to a question/problem “proves” that none of them is correct.

Never said that that "proves" that none of them is correct. Rather, it merely supports the standpoint that anyone claiming to have THE answer is probably talking out of his hat. It supports the standpoint that one should therefore be very skeptical. It supports the policy of not saying, "Well, of course the religion *I* grew up with just *happens* to be the only correct one!"

Secondly, it is also false to presume that there exists “thousands” of creation stories. In reality, as has been astutely pointed out: “When it comes to the truly Big Questions, there are very few men (or women) in the room.”

"Objection, Your Honor! Counsel assuming facts not in evidence!"

Your claiming that it was an "astute" observation does not make it so. Else I could, with equal validity, point out: "When it comes to the truly Big Questions, there are literally thousands in the room."

Regards,

109 posted on 12/27/2022 12:56:01 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: PeterPrinciple
But let’s ask the question behind this.

Please don't be coy! Spit it out! What is the answer to this?

In answering, please consider (differentiate between) the two cases you mention: 1. Public miracles, and 2. When Christ requested discretion.

What was the ostensible purpose of "1" - and what can we conclude from that?

What was the ostensible purpose of "2" - and what can we infer from that?

Seriously: I think it reasonable to completely ignore "2" - If Christ's requests had only been honored, we'd never have learned about those private miracles! They became publicized AGAINST His wishes!

Regards,

110 posted on 12/27/2022 1:01:09 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: WeaslesRippedMyFlesh
I ask them if they have ever tried to believe. Do an experiment. Apply the scientific method.

I hereby ask you to try to believe in fairies (I mean: Like Tinkerbell).

Do the experiment! Apply the scientific method!

Results?

Now try to believe in Thor!

Now try to believe in Jupiter!

Now try...

See where I'm going?

Regards,

111 posted on 12/27/2022 1:04:52 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: SeekAndFind
it's not just skeptics and non believers who might not believe this evidence: there are too many ways that fraud, hysteria, placebo effect and the power of suggestion could do this.

Do they have before and after photos, where the scarred cornea became clear, or the cataracts disappeared? That would be a miracle.

Indeed, remember Christ cured a lot of blind people, but the only blind person that impressed everyone was the man who was born blind...even back then, they were aware that ordinary miracles happened all the time, at pagan shrines or by charlatans, but a man who was born blind was a big miracle.

Most miracles I have seen could be attributed to coincidence or a rare natural cure. I have no problem with this: God works through coincidences. For example, an Indian lady awoke from a two year coma the week after her family held a novena asking God to cure her. But the doctors said it was because she had received a medicine to prevent influenza, that they just happened to give her that week.

When I worked in Africa, sometimes I had to leave for vacation or meetings: the sisters assured me that God knew I was away, so if something happened it was his will.

And sometimes we'd have a medical emergency five minutes after I came back, or five minutes before I was scheduled to leave, and the one patient who died during transfer had a condition that would have been fatal even if I was there.

so were these things coincidence, or just God doing little miracles?

112 posted on 12/27/2022 1:11:29 AM PST by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: SeekAndFind

‘If’ they want to describe something vague and not indicate that is vague, then these fuzzy words work.

Kinda red colored, around 8ish, fewer were noted - all fuzzy.

Fire Engine Red, 8:11 PM, 14 less than the 23 they had yesterday - all precise.


113 posted on 12/27/2022 5:02:56 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NorthMountain

Footnotes

Luke 4:12 Deut. 6:16

Many places in the NT, when OT verses are alluded to, the exact quote is not used.

I have no idea why.


114 posted on 12/27/2022 5:05:47 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SeekAndFind

Gideon seemed to have some ‘doubt’, and he tested God in the matter TWICE!


115 posted on 12/27/2022 5:07:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: alexander_busek

JW problems are MUCH greater than mere comma placement!

;^)


116 posted on 12/27/2022 5:10:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: alexander_busek
A living organism is far more likely to be the product of countless generations of evolution over billions of years.

How much more?

117 posted on 12/27/2022 5:12:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
JW problems are MUCH greater than mere comma placement!

Agreed!

But my point stands! How can I determine what "contradicts the Word of God" if I have nothing but specious, suspicious, error-ridden, agenda-driven, redacted, and revised documents at my disposal?

And how can I determine if a "miracle-worker" is demonic or not if you don't first produce a gen-u-wine "miracle-worker" for me to test?

Regards,

118 posted on 12/27/2022 5:15:35 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
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To: alexander_busek
Do not test the LORD your God as you tested Him at Massah.

Because it's ambiguous!

Oh?


Do not makeup your face as you did at your friends house.

Ambiguous or not?

119 posted on 12/27/2022 5:17:49 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: alexander_busek
If Christ's requests had only been honored

Request? or Command?

120 posted on 12/27/2022 5:19:14 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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