Posted on 11/19/2022 4:37:14 PM PST by MurphsLaw
But no… that doesn’t answer your question - of me – (which I try my best not be a dodge ball- as is SOP for most FRistians…) and it’s a question that I really never (had to) think about. The quick answer is I never really thought about “wanting” Mary to be Perpetual- as she always was. That’s what we are dogmatically taught. And as you are aware, Catholics don’t get to “decide for themselves” what they can believe and disbelieve- and still be correctly following the deposit of Faith that has been handed down.(St. Paul)
But Yes –if I think about it- I WANT the Blessed Virgin to be perpetually “inviolate” as we say.
And yes- I think Christ would want that too as well.
As my post yesterday reflected, Catholics do, and should think (want) Mary to remain that “worthy Vessel” of Jesus’ Incarnation-
venerated continuously -similarly to the Ark of the Covenant, or the Holy of Holies space of the Temple.
Any “personal” feelings or emotions outside that realm- cannot enter the Catholic equation.
Being a Catholic, twice now, it’s actually- or probably- harder to give up that personal desire of choice, and relegate how I choose to worship God, to a 2000 year old scholarly Magisterium- than to believe in the Immaculate or Perpetual ideals of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the first place.
Although that does enslave Catholics to a unified belief, it gives us a freedom of not having to worry whether we are believing in what is true or what isn’t true.
Another post this week mentioned the values of being unburdened by the ego- by pride- by those things of the self that keep us from God.
Freedom from our self-importance and desires is the fundamental basis for human salvation history.
Individualism must be killed off- to a point- in order to give that Glory we like to speak of.
While that is disputed by not-Catholics… you cannot tell me most DIY Christians don’t question their faith beliefs as true or not- or as true as they can possibly be- when they learn something they have never encountered- scripturally.
The scriptures- albeit God breathed- are often vague- and open for many various interpretations that can create confusion and disunity.
All of which speaks to your statement regarding:
“Your position is the extraordinary, so there must be a need for it”
I have to say that “my position” is not as extraordinary as you may think from your side. This was the thinking as a result of a plain reading of scripture for centuries.
I would charitably turn this around and make the claim to you- that it is “your” not-Catholic position that is being contrary to history… and so - needs to be justified as "THE" “extraordinary” one, requiring the rewrite of Christian history.
And- I’m not even sure a causal “need” is required for this theology of a Perpetual Virgin.
Yes – the Incarnation of God IS the MOST extraordinary event that has ever occurred in the history of Human creation on Earth.
For God to have fore known and pre-chosen this one Woman- Most Blessed of ALL women (which would include Eve) - who also will be called Blessed for ALL Nations- forever- This is what God willed has for Us.
This extraordinary flashpoint of this woman in human history-
most obviously outweighs the modern day thinking,
that after giving birth to Christ- or after Joseph,
and speaking with God’s Angels along the way...
that she was so weak and willfully ready to jump in the sack with any camel jockey that would have crossed her path-
KNOWINGLY, having brought everlasting Salvation into this World.
The actuality of your reply is that there is a Paradise somewhere and you have no clue as to its location.
Sure a lot of stuff in your answers.
Well MY therapist says I have every indication of being a kleptomaniac.
I told her not to worry, as I was taking something for it.
Bada bing!!
In fact you unknowingly star with my biggest peeve on this subject.
Now I have to follow the Church teaching- which IS Mary's Perpetual Virginity IS NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE-
but developed through interpretation thereof. So I agree to that. No where does it explicitly write she was, had to be, or lived her life as a virgin.
But my peeve is that in the OT prophesy of the scripture identifies the Mother to be a Virgin.
Well duh? It may not be common today...
But back in the day wasn't it common for a Wife to first be a Virgin?
How does that mean Mary any bit significant- to say a Virgin will birth a Savior?
You could get stoned for promiscuity... and even Joseph wanted to quietly put Mary away... Virginity of the bride-to-be was expected.
And The Vestal virgins of those days were specifically kept pure for the needs they were being saved for.
So the Virgin thing was nt remarkable as we think- and the Prophet could very well have been identifying a perpetual Virgin to birth the Lord.
Her virginity after the birth of Jesus has ZERO bearing on who Jesus is, the work He did, or our atonement. It is totally irrelevant to salvation outside of the need for the virgin birth. The perpetual virginity of Mary has no support from Scripture either.
Agree on both points.
They both can be claimed as truth... unlike that first paragraph.
Matthew tells us that Joseph was commanded to take Mary as his wife and that entails everything. DOCTOR Luke Notes that Mary gave birth to her FIRSTBORN son, not her ONLY son. I expect someone as educated as a doctor would know the difference between firstborn and only.
The need to use "firstborn" as first born child is understandable... but misunderstood...
but a deep dive into Jewish culture of that day would show that the term firstborn is used as a title, or rank- more so then an order of births.
In Exodus... Israel is called a "firstborn"- and in Revelation 1 Jesus is referred to as " firstborn of the dead:
So could firstborn mean- explicitly- the child born first of Mary, in Luke- or more of a title? I don't see how that conclusively proves Mary birthed other Children.
Additionally Scripture mentions His brothers many times.
Yes it does, sort of. It mentions "brothers" in our English translations- but never "his brothers".
That's a presumption you are reading into it.
Though even if the scripture is interpreted as familial brothers...and that could not be challenged- hypothetically-
which is NOT conclusive in those passages btw-
It does NOT prove anywhere they were Mary's children from her womb - and leaving open that they could have been steps from Joseph and his presumed widow.
Now in order to perpetuate the perpetual virginity of Mary, Catholicism make make many assumptions and engage in a lot of questionable theological gymnastics.
.
The assumption that Joseph was much older and they were his children has no basis in Scripture. It's pure speculation, rationalization at best.
Agreed... no where in scripture is Joseph discussed in that way... only that the Angels told him on several occasions, he was to protect her and the child Jesus.
But whether Joseph was younger- older whatever-
it still has no bearing on the proof for OR against a perpetual virginity.
The argument about the Greek word for brother and sister is equally weak.
Saying it is weak does not make it so.
That's speculative opinion- subject to your understanding.
There are plenty of non- Catholic theologians who can dispute your assertion- at a minimum calling it into question it being conclusive...
but again EVEN IF brother is only used as a familial term- it DOES NOT say these brothers and sisters came from Mary's womb.
Again that is just speculation.
The grasping at straws about her being the ark of God and how dare Joseph even think of touching her in a carnal way, is beyond laughable.
I don't agree. Moses forgoing any future sex with Zipporra after he encountered God is fact.
Forgoing sex for short or long periods ot time was part of the Jewish people in their Faith practice.
we have St. Paul as a pretty good example as well.
Even Christ said of celibacy that is a Choice - " for the SAKE of the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
where might Jesus have learned something like? that celibacy can be pleasing to God?
Maybe there is no sex in Heaven then?
Remember - that just because we live in a pornified- 24/7 sexualized enticing world...
that the ancients viewed sex same as we do - as something we can never control over.
For Joseph to follow an abstinence is not as abnormal as we think it is.
Besides, Scripture proves that when God touches the lives of those in the Bible...
they are often changed forever!for better or worse that is....
Why is Mary- full of Grace- Blessed among ALL women- not capable of transformation from being physically touched by God?
Mary was a normal, sinful human being, by nature of being human, and needed redemption as all of us do. She was not sinless, nor was she perpetually virgin.
You can hold that view...
But you cannot say SCRIPTURE can prove OR DISPROVE IT... one way or the other.
Like your Adelphos discussion...
One has to go outside of scripture to prove your reasoning.
All that is speculation aimed at deifying Mary, elevating her to a place she does not belong.
Always remember.... God can do whatever God wants to do.
We cannot limit what God's Will is.
God is not bound by Scripture, Sacraments or Church Magesterium...
ANYTHING is possible with God.
FWIW, I do not care what Luther or Calvin had to say on the matter. Their opinion is not Scripture and is irrelevant so appealing to them as if that would change my mind is a waste of time.
.
Why not want her to be perpetually virgin? Because there is no Scriptural support for it and teaching as truth that something happened that cannot be verified by any other means that rationalization, leads to error.
Only you can change your mind.
You can absolutely know the truth in your mind... and still not choose to believe it.
No one can change our minds.
And again here though... your living a straw man argument.... building it up, to knock it down.
NO ONE CAN - OR IS SAYING - Marian Dogma is explicit in scriptural.
Luther did not defend her Perpetual Virginity with scriptural proof text.
(Is it a chink in his Sola Scriptura doctrinal armor?)
Not my worry... but if the plain reading of scripture for 1500 years revealed this Perpetual doctrine for just about ALL Christians who had ever lived....
I have stated the Perpetual Virgin is the historical default position- and that the burden is on the contrary.
and so clearly defended by MOST of the Protestant Reformers you dismiss...
IT WAS NOT JUST a Catholic held understanding of scripture-
and would not be challenged until 200 years ago...
when Joseph Smith, Ellen W., and many other people promoting their own splinter theologies.
I think this deserves some thought.
So the question remains, why is it so important that Mary have remained a perpetual virgin? How does that affect Jesus and His atonement? How does that affect our salvation? What need is there for it?
Again... no one says it effects Atonement or Salvation. Need? I would ask why God had to choose a woman in the first place?
Why incarnation?
I would ask why we need the Doctrine of the Trinity? Asking why we "need" something...
presupposes an unnecessary position to begin with.
Why is virginity so lauded as the highest ideal by a church that insists on Catholic couples having as many children as possible?
God said to go forth and multiply.
Is not the denying of sex by one person in the marriage to their spouse grounds for an annulment in Catholicism? Something about defrauding the other person?
Again- you're breaking your own scripture rules.
Your asserting - presupposing- that one of the Holy Family denied the other.
Where does this come from...?
NOWHERE in the Bible is Mary and Joseph's sex life hinted at- other than "he knew her not until"
(which you read into that- after the birth of Jesus... he knew her mucho.
That's all assumption, pun intended.
Now I'm tempted to give you another dimension to consider,
that Mary was espoused in a spiritual way to the Holy Spirit - after all that's who got her pregnant...
NOT JOSEPH.... but no... too soon...
Bottom line is:
Scripture can neither conclusively confirm- OR - conclusively deny Marian Dogma.
The answer does NOT, can NOT, come from scripture.
If for you, scripture must contain these answers...
Then there is just no way to know- conclusively.
“No photographs, unless you count the negative on the Shroud of Turin.”
It is a fake and you cannot prove any different, so guess again.
“But lots and lots and LOTS of paintings throughout all Christendom.”
All sins and just as fake as your cult is Christian. All of them are just dreams of man’s imagination no more no less.
So, why did your cult remove the 2nd commandment in your catechism is icon worship is so righteous?
“I guess getting the death penalty for being a Christian until the 300s or so, was COMPLETELY insignificant, according to you.”
What you say murdering cult member...the inquisitions (Christian murder) went on long after the reformation, you know the 16th century. By my math that is nearly 1,600 years of true Christians being murdered.
The inquisitions were Christian murdered by the roman cult or as you put it death penalty for being a Christian. Do not deny it your cult’s pope has already admitted to it, so history and your cult shows it to be true and real.
I’ll ask you again, if icon worship is so righteous why did your cult remove the 2nd commandment from their catechism?
What planet did you beam down from?
Forgotten Nero and the “Lions 1, Christians 0” already?
Hence no explicitly Christian, public artwork for some time after Christ.
Merry Christmas, troll.
“Why, why, why...”
Spirit of Jezebel... her name means the same thing.
“WHY Wouldn’t Jesus Christ want the woman he chose to be His Mother be Perpetually dedicated to his Incarnation?”
Hmm... well because she’s not GOD the Creator, but she is the creature He created!
The question is why would you romans want her to be perpetually dedicated, simple, to satisfy your goddess status...you know like Jezebel claimed to be.
“A better question is why do you want her to be perpetual? Your position is the extraordinary, so there must be a need for it.”
Jezebel=virgin though she had children, Revelation Chap 2:20.
You don't know what on Earth you're talking about.
Protties love to deride the Shroud because they wrongly count it as a relic; but there is a wealth of late 20th century scientific study speaking to its authenticity.
They still don't know how to produce the image: it was not painted on, but is a result of Maillard reactions (like caramelizing when cooking) of the outer layers of the cloth fibers.
As well as breakdown products from human hemoglobin; and little things like the holes going through the wrists (not the hands as early paintings of the crucifixion portrayed it).
There are quite extensive discussions about it here on FR.
“You don’t know what on Earth you’re talking about.”
I hate to break the news to you, but thousands were crucified, so your assumptions have no merit just dreams. Moses said that GOD would raise one up like him and as GOD attempted to protect the Jews from worshipping Moses, GOD attempted to protect Christians from relic worship. Unfortunately it didn’t work for the roman cult, but GOD tried to save you from yourself.
“They still don’t know how to produce the image: it was not painted on, but is a result of Maillard reactions (like caramelizing when cooking) of the outer layers of the cloth fibers.”
Science still thinks that man came from single cell bacteria/ooze, the universe is billions of years old, and GOD does NOT exist, so your reliance on man’s science to explain GOD’s miracles is foolish at best.
I’m still waiting on why your cult removed the 2nd commandment if icon, relic, and marion worship is so righteous?
The real question is why man has such a desire to worship and serve a virgin goddess deity even though Scripture is quite clear that we are not to worship or serve another god?
We see it in Scripture over and over to include Artemis, Dianna, Jezebel, and today the false goddess mary that Scripture alludes to as the spirit of Jezebel.
While roman catholics can deny it all they want their fruit and actions prove that they not only worship her but serve her too. The very word in Latin dulia means service and to that they add hyper, so by their own admission they serve her to the point of extreme slavery. They attribute attributes to her that only gods can have, eternal virginity while have mortal children, perfectly conceived as GOD, able to hear and answer prayers that only GOD Himself is able to do.
Romans play the word games of dulia, hyper dulia, and latria, but they cannot show or tell the difference between GOD’s attributes and their false mary’s attributes. The comparisons to Jezebel in Revelation 2 are unbelievable and remarkable, but yet romans still cannot put their pride down long enough to see the truth as presented in GOD’s Holy Word.
rcc’s pray to Mary and their god
rcc’s bow to Mary and their god
rcc’s kneel to Mary and their god
rcc’s offer sacrifice to Mary and their god
rcc’s serve Mary and their god
rcc’s get grace from Mary and from their god
Other blasphemous names that rome attributes to their false goddess.
Co-Redemptrix,
Ark of the Covenant,
Beloved daughter of the Father,
Favoured Daughter of the Father,
Cause of Our Joy,
Cause of our Salvation ,
Comfort of the Afflicted,
Destroyer of Heresy,
Ever-virgin ,
Gate of Heaven,
God-bearer,
Great Mother,
Health of the Sick,
Heavenly Chariot,
Help of Christians,
Holy Mary,
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of Virgins,
House of Gold,
Joy of the Just,
Majesty,
Mirror of Justice,
Morning Star,
Most Holy,
Mother Admirable,
Mother Inviolate,
Mother Most Amiable,
Mother Most Chaste,
Mother Most Pure,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of Divine Grace,
Mother of God,
Mother of Good Counsel,
Mother of Mercy,
Mother of Orphans,
Mother of Our Creator,
Mother of Our Redeemer,
Mother of Sorrows,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of the Poor,
Mother of the Word,
Mother of the Word Incarnate,
Mother Thrice Admirable,
Mother Undefiled,
Mystical Rose,
Nova Eva (the New Eve),
Our Lady of Compassion,
Our Lady of Confidence,
Our Lady of Victory,
Our Lady, Star of the Sea,
Our Mother of Perpetual Help,
Queen Assumed Into Heaven,
Queen Conceived Without Original Sin,
Queen of All Saints,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Families,
Queen of Heaven,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Peace,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of the Most Holy Rosary,
Queen of Virgins,
Ravisher of Hearts,
Refuge of Sinners,
Resplendant car,
Seat of Wisdom,
She Who Shows the Way,
Singular Vessel of Devotion,
Spiritual Vessel,
Spouse of the Holy Spirit,
Sovereign Mistress of the Angels,
Tabernacle of the Lord,
Temple of the Holy Spirit,
Temple of the Most Holy Trinity,
Throne of Wisdom,
Tower of David,
Tower of Ivory,
Treasure House of God’s Graces,
Untier of Knots,
Vessel of Honor,
Virgin God-bearer,
Virgin Most Faithful,
Virgin Most Merciful,
Virgin Most Powerful,
Virgin Most Prudent,
Virgin Most Renowned,
Virgin Most Venerable
Virgin of virgins,
Rome’s goddess
eternal virgin, was married and had a child and several other children
Jezebel
virgin, was married and had a child
Rome’s goddess
false prophet
Jezebel
false prophet
Rome’s goddess
demon that appeared as light and the roman church took the bait
Jezebel Baal exalts as light Israel took the bait
Rome’s goddess
Bible never calls her queen of heaven or queen mother though she is the mother of the King
Jezebel
Bible never calls her queen though she is married to a king of Israel
Rome’s goddess
daughter of the King
Jezebel
daughter of a king
Rome’s goddess
gave birth to the King
Jezebel gave birth to a king
Rome’s goddess
Son had no children
Jezebel’s son had no children
Rome’s goddess
Destroys GOD’s people with lies
Jezebel
Destroys GOD’s people with lies
Rome’s goddess
Pride to ask for worship and obedience
Jezebel
Pride to ask for worship and obedience
Rome’s goddess
Given time to repent
Jezebel
Given time to repent
Rome’s goddess
Children thrown on a bed of sickness and killed
Jezebel
Children thrown on a bed of sickness and killed
Rome’s goddess
Directly tied to Satan
Jezebel directly tied to Satan
Come out of her people the tribulation is fast approaching and from that you will not like what is going to happen.
Trying to contact the dead is forbidden in Scripture. There are no exceptions stipulated by God. God never specified that it was OK if the dead were really “living” in heaven, which FWIW we cannot know.
Catholics cannot know whether the person they are praying to is actually in heaven or not or whether they could hear us anyways.
And why should dead people’s prayers be more effective than ours? Do you think they can get God to give us what He wouldn’t if we ourselves asked?
So why would having sex with her lawful husband be unworthy of her?
Why do Catholics act as if sex between husband and wife is somehow sinful or carnal or wrong?
You all do realize, don’t you, that sex was GOD’S idea and plan as part of marriage for humanity and that He declared it very good and blessed it?
So while you admit that there is no Scriptural proof for much of the teaching about the Catholic version of Mary, the Catholic religion goes ahead and teaches it as if it were fact/truth anyways, when they cannot guarantee it.
If it cannot be explicitly demonstrated to be true using Scripture, they have no business passing opinion or preference off as truth.
If you all want to idolize her by putting her on a pedestal, which makes you respecters of persons (see James on that sin) that’s your business, but to pass off something as Truth which is not verifiable is wrong.
If they simply claim that is their opinion, or preference, that’s one thing. But a religion which claims it has the truth needs to be circumspect about what it definitively declares as true when it’s based on nothing more than wishful thinking and rationalization.
Mary having normal sexual relations with her lawful husband does not diminish in my eyes in the least. On the contrary, she is being a good Jewish wife by not defrauding her husband.
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