Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Tradition | 03-06-2022 | CharlesOconnell

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—> You don’t have an answer to my question

Did. The answer was that the Scripture doesn’t say anything about gentiles attending Torah Kindergarten.

I also explained what was meant in the passage.

Any additional idea you brought to the passage. It isnt there.

[MHGinTN]

He answered your arrogant question, twisted as it was because you are not an honest person. Not one yot or tittle in the Acts fifteen council letter or the conclusion of their discussion commends the gentiles to go to ‘torah kindergarten. In fact, if the gentiles had been attending synagogue they would have to have been observing all Jewish restrictions. You are a false teacher and a hypocrite. It is typical of the self-righteous to couch their phrases with double meanings, so they can dodge direct questions. You’re exhibiting such behavior here.

[Philip_the_evangelist]

Telling reaction to say the least.

[Elsie]

AHA!

You got the number!!

[MHGinTN]

Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.

[Elsie]

I hope you have better luck.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Someone had to sanctify it with truth!

[af_vet_1981]

It cannot harm their salvation. That is decided.

The Messiah taught otherwise except you admit the doctrine of pergatory:
1. The debt one owes is sin.
2. The Father forgave the sin of the first debtor.
3. Then the debtor went and mistreated a fellow debtor.
4. Then the fellow servants saw and told the Father.
5. The Father delivered the first debtor, whose debt (sins) had been forgiven to the tormentors until his debt (which had been forgiven) was paid (via punishment).
6. One should hope this is purgation and not everlasting torment, but it is certainly not the relatively modern once saved, always saved doctrine.

Matthew 18:21-35
King James Version

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

[af_vet_1981]

pergatory => purgatory

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Nah. No purgatory in Scripture.

[Elsie]

... till he should pay all that was due unto him.

How is this supposed to work?

[Elsie]

No purgatory in Scripture.

Unless one finds that purge also means to vomit.

I think there may be a few places about this action to be found in Scripture.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=vomit+in+the+bible&ia=web

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Yes, there certainly is purging.

[af_vet_1981]

Nah. No purgatory in Scripture.

The Pharisees scoffed at Jesus' teaching.

Nevertheless The first debtor had his debt (sins) forgiven. That servant then sinned again against his fellow servants. The Father, as a corporal punishment, had him handed over to the tormentors for punishment until his debt (sins) would be paid for. Jesus said this would happen to the disciples unless they "from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

That is something every one of us on FR should take to heart. The Judge stands at the door.

[af_vet_1981]

unless => if

[MurphsLaw]

Yeah, your gonna gave to flesh out this BEMA seat thing... I will look it up... but not familiar with the terminology.
It sounds more like Purgatory somewhat to me though...no, exactly like purgatory; ie. forgiveness of Sins ... in the age to come":

Or, Is this the sheep's and goat judgement deal?
I would guess not, since that judgement brings works into account... and I know how you feel about that.

And so how many judgements will we have to go thru anyhow?

So the bottom line for you then is that our actions DO matter... correct?
Note I intentionally used the more palatable word "actions"- not works...

But you do not understand my dilemma,
Now most non-Catholic theology I know of says you can commit ANY sin - even murder... and the forgiveness of Grace does not hold the dinner accountable (Thank You Martin)... this is NOT your belief then, correct?

You like to "rail" on Catholics who cannot understand or "grasp" things because we are too "works" oriented (which is incorrect- we are both Faith + Works oriented)
But what YOU dont appreciate I'd that there are so many differing, contradicting rules of faith in your non- Catholic sphere (each claiming the Truth) and it is difficult to understand them all at the same time- or even to find coherency.

And now I'm thinking that has much to do with the variability in the non-denom thingy- which I am still working on to get back to you.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Not scoffing at Christ.
Denying that His parable has anything to do with the made up purgatory

[MurphsLaw]

Ok, no railing...
Does this mean you are of this BEMA seat deal where our actions DO matter then?..as MrTN is talking about... that would change things but also contradict longstanding theology.

Paul is throwing out warnings like beads at Mardi Gras parade... even tells the Galatian church? (I think) That he had warned them once we before even, so it's like a second notice deal- which is significantly important to Paul then.

But if the Protestant who's foundation is Faith alone, and is doing something "wrong", sinning- it has no consequence, "sin boldly, believe more boldly" Luther says. So sinning boldly at a pagan potluck should not be an issue for Paul to be concerned with. If other beliefs are considered- the Corinyjians do not even possess the free will to make sinful decisions
So there really is no crime... ...Others who claim good works dont count for Salvation and are of mo benefit- then Bad works can't count toward damnation then... and you can do anything you want with that perspective.

I've read where some Protestants believe that we are not "under the Law" of even the 10 Commandments. I thong that's nutty - but I guess a good number of believers think that way... which to me negates any need for the BEMA judgement...
There is a confusing disconnect here and smh..

Are you of the BEMA seat crowd then?

[MHGinTN]

Once saved -in the Father's Hand- Jesus told you that no one -and that includes YOU- can take one out of His Hand. Can God expel you from his Hand? Of course ... if He was an double minded god, unable to know the end from the beginning, so he would not keep you secure and would get rid of you. Is that the God of The Bible you've read?

There is no such mythical place as purgatory. That is yet another heresy invented by Catholicism as a means to empower the ORG and priesthood. It also devalues the work Jesus accomplished on the cross, as if he didn't quite do enough to cover all your sins and needs you to add soemthing. That is stealing Glory from the ONLY ONE due the glory.

Remember what Paul said?... "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." And you don't understand why that is so sure. So I am going to tell you: when a person gets born again / born from above, GOD By HIS WORD separates the soul and spirit and He via the Holy Spirit comes to abide in the newborn spirit which is no longer under the capture of the soul, the behavior mechanism. He says He will never leave or forsake you. GOD DOES NOT SEND HIS ABIDING SPIRIT INTO A TORMENT GRINDER. Jesus did not go to that horrific cross in order that your soul could be cleansed sufficiently to enter Heaven. He went to that cross to redeem spirits, your spirit, my spirit, the spirit of ANYONE who believes God and accepts God's Grace in Christ. Instead He brings the born again spirit to abide with Him after the body is no longer a fit residence for a righteousness-of-Christ newborn spirit.

And just so you know, that's why Paul told (1 Thess 4:13-18) you that when Jesus descends from Heaven with a shout He is bringing those spirits who have been birthed from above, with Him when He raptures away the Body of Christ Believers in the new glorified bodies and behavior mechanisms He will give them in that instant of transformation (1 Cor 15:53-58) then rising up to meet the Lord int he Air and return to the Father's House in our new glorified bodies.

[MHGinTN]

Read post #699. If you have questions rom that post try to hold off until you are no longer 'under the influence' tiomorrow and we will gladly and earnestly address them. The Bema Judgment takes place In Heaven, AFTER Jesus has gathered His Body of Christ glorified Believers to Himself in the clouds and returned to the Father's House. The Bema seat is not for judging to give salvation, because it is a 'reviewing' for ONLY those who have already been born again / born from above. At the Bema Seat Judgment, rewards are meted out according to performance, and written of as crowns.

Finally, once saved the spirit of me is no longer sequestered to the soul of me, the behavior mechanism of me. The Word of God is more powerful than any two edged sword, able to separate soul and spirit. With salvation the spirit is separated sufficiently from the soul such that the Righteousness of Christ imputed to the newborn is in force by the Holy Spirit abiding in that newborn and separated spirit *1John3:9).

Thanks be to God my newborn spirit CANNOT sin even as the behavior mechanism does sin, is drawn to sin, is unregenerate and destined for dissolution when I die or God transforms me at the Rapture.