Posted on 02/15/2022 5:49:53 AM PST by kinsman redeemer
The Diocese of Phoenix said 'all of the baptisms he has performed until June 17, 2021, are presumed invalid'
"The issue with using ‘We’ is that it is not the community that baptizes a person, rather, it is Christ, and Him alone, who presides at all of the sacraments, and so it is Christ Jesus who baptizes," Olmsted said.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
The only thing hard I would say about confession of faith and repentance is our pride. We are all corrupt to the core, sinners from birth. Pretty sure you have a similar view on that statement.
As for “If it matters so much for salvation it should be nothing in comparison.” I am not sure what you are asking here in comparison to what?
Comparison to salvation, the pearl of great price and treasure in the field that salvation is. Matt 13:44-50
Jesus says, unless you deny yourself you cannot be his disciple. 16:24
I am in agreement with what you just posted. Not that my agreement matters, it does not.
I have no doubt you take subject of salvation very serious as do your faith as well. It comes across well in your writings
Thank you, I wish you we’ll as well. I can see you take it seriously also. You have a good day.
Anyone can perform a Christian baptism, as per Catholic teachings. You need water and the right words in the name of the Trinity: “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” The Catholic Church accepts all baptisms that follow this formula.
Why didn’t this priest know to use the word “I”? Or did he know but decide to change the wording on his own?
Whatever the reason, apparently this has happened before. Example: Different priest, different parish: https://www.aod.org/august-23-2020-letter-to-the-faithful-english
Why did he use “We”?That is the real story here, which is not answered in any of the articles I've seen on the story. It's not a simple mix up of pronouns. What was this priest's agenda?
Here is comment #4:
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To: kinsman redeemer
“Hee hee hee!” thinks God, “THAT word wasn’t right, I’m off the hook! I don’t have to accept the baptism!”
4 posted on 2/15/2022, 8:55:29 AM by fluffy
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I responded as follows:
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2/15/2022, 9:30:09 AM · 31 of 261
one guy in new jersey to fluffy
How much patience or tolerance, do you think, God has for human irreverence? How much should he have? Asking for a friend
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Perhaps defending your friend fluffy, you chimed in as follows:
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2/15/2022, 9:34:03 AM · 37 of 261
Skwor to one guy in new jersey
Matthew 18:21-22,
Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Though I read that more as a point that we need to always forgive than as a literal rule
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I responded to you as follows:
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2/15/2022, 9:37:18 AM · 38 of 261
one guy in new jersey to Skwor
With all due respect, that bible passage is about us forgiving each other.
My question stands unanswered.
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and here is the rest of our dialogue:
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2/15/2022, 9:41:23 AM · 42 of 261
Skwor to one guy in new jersey
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
whoever believes. No matter what you have done, you will be forgiven if you just accept his grace. Their is only 1 sin biblically mentioned that one can not be forgiven for, and in my limited understanding that can not occur unless you have already received grace and then willfully, with malice even, blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
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2/15/2022, 11:17:58 AM · 161 of 261
one guy in new jersey to Skwor
You are all over the map.
We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Irreverence is a dealbreaker.
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2/15/2022, 11:24:41 AM · 164 of 261
Skwor to one guy in new jersey
Hew am I all over the map. My point to near pin point focus is Christ’s death is sufficient unto salvation.
John 10:27. His voice is all we need to hear and the Scriptures are His voice, completely and utterly sufficient.
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2/15/2022, 11:32:26 AM · 166 of 261
one guy in new jersey to Skwor
In the words of former NYC mayor Ed Koch, I can explain it to you, but I can’t comprehend it for you.
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My issue was with fluffy’s apparent disdain for the reverence Catholics display (or in this case, notably failed to display) for what we believe God requires in terms of the specific wording by which the Sacrament of Baptism is to be performed.
It also seemed to me based on fluffy’s comment that fluffy might harbor a certain baseline or general irreverence toward God himself.
Please discuss the reverence you believe is due to God among those who believe in Him and desire ultimate salvation.
Yeah, it's not the baptism it's the faith in Jesus that saves you. Baptism is the first command. As a fulfillment of that command and as an outward expression of faith, I'd say that was accomplished regardless of the priest's error.
Placemarker
Yes, I note it does not say anything about conferring grace.
...After all, did Jesus directly say he was God or strongly imply it so that people could decide to believe in Him?
Yes, in many ways that the Jewish leaders understood, HE claimed to be God.
In summary, nothing in the passage even implies that baptism confers grace.
Adding to my post (which wasn’t clear enough): He resigned as pastor of a church, but he’s still a priest.
Much like Cornelius who was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which HAVE RECEIVED the Holy Ghost as well as we?
ACTS 11
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
***Show us all where it says in the bible that baptism saves.
1 Peter 3:21. Says it explicitly.
***Show us where a lack of baptism does not condemn and then develop how this is somehow the same thing that saves such a person.
John 3:18
A person can come to faith before his baptism,
***Then that is what saved them.
Indeed, I have never said otherwise.
but that doesn’t mean baptism doesn’t do what the Bible says it does.
***Now you’re playing some weird word game about the word “do”.
No idea what weird word game you think I’m playing. Here’s what the Bible says baptism DOES:
Cleanses you from iniquity, gives you a heart of flesh rather that of stone. Ezekiel 36:25-33
Makes you a disciple of Jesus. Matthew 28:19
Gives you the Holy Spirit. John 3:5, Acts 2:38.Forgives your sins. Acts 2:38
Joins you with the death and resurrection of Jesus. Romans 6:2-5, Colossians 2:12.
Washes the Church and makes her holy. Ephesians 5:25-26
Clothes you in Christ. Galatians 3:27.
Regenerates you. Titus 3:5.
Saves you. 1 Peter 3:21
Furthermore, all old testament saints were obviously saved without being baptized
***Which goes against your point that baptism saves.
Not in the slightest. I never said one couldn’t believe or be saved without being baptized. I only said what baptism does. See above.
***John the baptist baptized, well before the thief on the cross. He even baptized Jesus.
Yes, but not pursuant to Jesus’s command to baptize. The Jews baptized long before John, doesn’t mean their baptism was efficacious.
There’s so damn much IGNORANT ANTI-CATHOLIC CRAP on here anymore, it’s DISGUSTING but FUNNY!!
It does for some. Tradition counts as much as the Bible to some. I don’t understand. I am still learning in my faith. I expect I will die learning in my faith but it seams to me to be Christ, grace faith. But again I am still learning.
I’ll pass this along. Folks are quoting tradition as though it were gospel. Logic has its own force; if it’s logical, it’s logical. Tradition won’t overturn it. Faith that tradition is more gospel than scripture -— We will be judged by the books, not man-made tradition.
I will show four necessary conditions to becoming a Christian.
- - - - -
Logic and Doctrine
We find a large variation in the various Christian theologies. Some maintain that faith alone is necessary and sufficient to save souls. Others agree that faith is necessary but assert that there are additional necessary conditions. Until all necessary conditions are fulfilled, the state of being saved is not met; in other words, the sufficient condition for being save is met only when all necessary conditions are met.
Doctrines established by using the rules of logic avoid the difficulties that arise when one prefers man-made tradition over the teaching of scripture. If the logic is solid, then the doctrine is solid.
Intro to Symbolic Logic
Definitions
Conditional statement: A conditional statement is often presented as IF (This and That) THEN (So and So). For Example: IF I score higher than 95 THEN I will receive a grade of B.
If this conditional statement is true, then a score higher than 95 guarantees the result, a grade of B.
In the case that I score 95 or less, there is no guarantee that I will get a B.
The professor could still award a grade of B based on other factors.
The conditional statement is symbolized as If P Then Q, P -— > Q, P implies Q.
In the example in the previous paragraph, P is “I score higher than 95”, Q is “I will receive a grade of B.”
Contrapositive: For P -— > Q, the contrapositive statement is Not Q -— > Not P.
In words: IF I am not awarded a B THEN I did not score above 95.
The contrapositive has the same truth value as the conditional statement.
This means that, P -— > Q is true, then ~Q -— > ~P is also true.
Should you find out that I did not get a B, you know that I did not score above 95.
From the previous paragraph: Should you know that my score was above 95, you also know that I will get a B.
Converse: Q -— > P. IF I receive a grade of B THEN I scored above 95.
Even if the conditional statement is true, the converse is not necessarily true.
The prof could have made a mistake in averaging scores; he could have given me an invisible bonus that resulted in a grade of B; he could have felt sorry for me.
The converse is a whole new game, requiring some contemplation before deciding its truth value.
Inverse: ~P -— > ~Q IF I didn’t score above 95 THEN I was not awarded a B.
While this has the same truth value as the convers, it is not necessarily true even if the conditional is true. Scoring 95 or less does not guarantee not getting a B, for reasons suggested in the previous paragraphs.
Biconditional Statement: This is symbolized as: P < -— > Q. Stated as P IFF Q or P if and only if Q.
The arrow points both ways. This is a very strong statement of logic.
A mathematics analogy would be: IF 5 + 5 = 10 THEN 2 X 5 = 10. This is the definition of multiplication.
IF we know that 5 + 5 = 10 THEN we also know that 2 X 5 = 10.
IF we know that 2 X 5 = 10 THEN we also know that 5 + 5 = 10
Necessary Condition: We can identify the necessary condition by the following procedure.
(1) Recast the information into a goal and an action using the connecting phrase in order to.
(2) Identify a goal and an action.
(3) Recast as Goal -— > Action
(4) The Action part is the necessary condition.
Belief
I think we are ready to quote some verses of scripture and examine them for their meaning.
” “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
(1) I must believe in order to be saved.
(2) Goal = I want to be saved; Action = I must believe
(3) IF I want to be save THEN I must believe.
(4) The necessary condition is I must believe.
To be a Christian, it is necessary that one believe.
Repentance:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. Acts 3:19
(1) I must repent in order to have my sins blotted out.
(2) Goal = Sins blotted out; be saved. Action: Repent
(3) IF I want to be saved THEN I must repent.
(4) The Necessary Condition is “ Repent.
To be a Christian it is necessary that one repent.
Confession:
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. ~ Romans 10:9
(1) I must confess that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved.
(2) Goal = be saved; Action = confess Jesus
(3) IF I want to be saved THEN I must confess Jesus
(4) The Necessary Condition is to confess Jesus
To be a Christian, it is necessary that one confess.
Baptism:
And now, why tarriest thou; arise and be baptized and wash away your sins. Acts 22:16
(1) I must be baptized in order to wash away my sins.
(2) Goal = wash away my sins. Action = be baptized.
(3) IF I want to wash away my sins THEN I must be baptized.
(4) The Necessary Condition is to be baptized.
To be a Christian, it is necessary that I be baptized.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21
(1) I must be baptized in order to be saved.
(2) Goal = to be saved; Action = be baptized.
(3) IF I want to be saved THEN I must be baptized.
(4) The Necessary Condition is to be baptized.
As an aside, Peter closely connects baptism with the answer of a good conscience toward God. Is this why an infant is baptized? Is his conscience motivating him to ask for baptism?
Four Necessary Conditions have been identified for the salvation of a sinner: Belief, Repentance, Confession, Baptism.
By themselves, none of these actions are sufficient to guarantee salvation.
Completing all four actions is sufficient to guarantee salvation to a sinner.
Know ye not that so many of us that were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death. Romans 6:3
I must be baptized in order to be in Christ. That is, in his church.
Nowhere does scripture teach that we believe into his church; we repent into his church; we confess into his church. Only baptism moves a sinner into the church.
If you teach that faith alone saves, then you are teaching that Christ will save outside his church.
And, by the way, baptism in the New Testament was immersion.
The Biconditional:
Using belief as an example:
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already... John 3:18
This verse contains the conditional: IF believe THEN saved, and the Inverse: IF ~believe THEN ~saved.
Therefore, this is a biconditional statement, and all logical statements, the conditional, the contrapositive, the converse and the inverse all share the same truth value.
Believe -— > Saved.
~Saved -— > ~Believed.
Saved -— > Believe.
~Believe -— > ~ Saved.
Verses can be found that result in a similar biconditional statement for Repentance, Confession and Baptism.
= = = =
https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/lsat/lsat-lessons
http://www.math.hawaii.edu/~ramsey/Logic/PandNotP.html
I’m at your post 130.
Isn’t it amazing how various people can read scripture and get different doctrinal results.
In Corinth there were four denominations: Paul, Apollos, Peter and Christ. A definition of denomination(s) is divisions based on names. Example: Luther, Peter, Wesley.
Paul trashes three of those denominations: “Was I crucified for you?” The founder of a man-made denomination is to be the one sacrificed for the sins of the members.
There was one non-denominational church in Corinth, not created by man, that was the Lord’s church. Every denomination and its creed/doctrine/tradition is man made.
The big question is whether all man-made denominations will be invited into heaven or only the one non-denominational church? The only resource to answer that question is the scripture, not tradition.
The thief died more than 50 days before the church even began. The thief is a non-issue. How could he be baptized into something that didn’t exist? He couldn’t be baptized, he was nailed to a cross. The Lord could pronounce forgiveness of sins and he decided to pronounce forgiveness of sins to the thief.
And here your explanation has a subtle reality to it namely, that Baptism is connected to salvation.
***Of COURSE it’s “connected” to salvation, but it is not NECESSARY for salvation.
Its an inescapable part of the inclusion of the gentiles among the new faith.
***Sure, baptism is an inescapable inclusion but it is not a necessary inclusion into salvation.
Baptism makes them members of the new faith in Jesus.
***There is wiggle room in your assertion by using words such as “makes them members” “of the new faith” “in Jesus”. Baptism is an open identification with the followers of Jesus, so your pablum statement CAN be construed to be a non-assertion but I suspect what you’re really trying to say is that there’s more to baptism, that they AREN’T members of the new faith in Jesus UNTIL they get baptized, which the Holy Spirit already demonstrated to be untrue.
Here is what was written:
Bayard: There are many kinds of gifts of grace.
Kevmo:***Attempted obfuscation. We are talking about the one gift, salvation. Not other gifts.
Here is what you wrote:
Baptism makes them members of the new faith in Jesus. ***What they have been given already is salvation.
Text doesn’t say that. It says Peter recognized they had to be Baptized, it doesn’t say they were already saved. ***Attempted obfuscation. We are talking about the one gift, salvation. Not other gifts.
You completely lost the thread in your attempt at obfuscation.
Bayard, quoting a bible verse:
There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; there are different forms of service but the same Lord; there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit. —1 Cor 12:4-7
***You are simply continuing down this path of trying to talk about other gifts of the spirit than salvation. It is an attempt at obfuscation and it is a logical fallacy. Knock it off.
Bayard: I would agree that all grace is at work towards salvation, however
***There is no however when it comes to salvation and grace.
God himself gave conditions to ones reception of the gifts of the spirit.
***I don’t think he gave conditions on the reception of salvation AT ALL, just look at the thief on the cross. Look at the gentiles who accepted Christ first, and had the baptism of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptised. There is no scriptural basis for your assurance.
One needs grace to believe in Jesus for example, one also must be faithful to Jesus by keeping the word of Jesus.
***More pablum. You keep throwing in whataboutisms, obfuscations, and pablum.
How is it anti-catholic? It is PRO-Bible. If you guys can’t support your positions with the bible then YOU are the ones being anti.
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