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How We lost The Bible
The Catholic Thing ^ | 8-4-2021 | Casey Chalk

Posted on 08/04/2021 2:19:35 PM PDT by MurphsLaw

The promotion of Biblical interpretations serving secular, liberal political agendas of sex and race is only the latest manifestation of a centuries-old trend.

The Bible makes no explicit condemnations of transgenderism. It makes no claims as to the morality of abortion. It encourages racial reparations. Such claims can be found virtually everywhere in corporate media like the Washington Post, New York Times, or CNN, which seek to promote the various political objectives of the Democratic Party.

During his campaign for president, Episcopalian Pete Buttigieg argued that Jesus never mentioned abortion and that Bible verses censuring homosexuality were culturally conditioned, not eternal truths. The Washington Post, in turn, cites secular academics, who offer Biblical exegesis of a progressivist, feminist, and racial identitarian variety.

Of course, the Bible has always been a political document. The Old Testament was not only a religious and liturgical text but one that had much to say about the governance of the ancient kingdom of Israel. Jesus told his followers to respect and pay taxes to the Roman Empire. St. Paul described the temporal ruler as “God’s servant for your good.” (Romans 13:3-4)

For most of ecclesial history, the primary interpreters of Holy Scripture were not journalists, politicians, or secular academics, but the Catholic Church herself. Most early Church Fathers were priests or bishops. Ecumenical councils like Nicea, Chalcedon, or Lyon made determinations on theology, morality, and the meaning of the Bible.

But beginning in the fourteenth century, scholars like Marsilius of Padua and William of Ockham began questioning the hierarchy’s hold on biblical interpretation. Instead, they proposed, the Bible should be under the authority of scholarly experts supported by secular political authorities. Though it would take several centuries for their ideas to proliferate, this thinking came to fruition in the Reformation and Enlightenment, and inspire trends in scriptural exegesis to this day.

This story is the focus of Scott Hahn’s and Benjamin Wiker’s book, The Decline and Fall of Sacred Scripture: How the Bible Became a Secular Book. Less than three-hundred pages, the book summarizes the central arguments of the authors’ 2012 Politicizing the Bible: The Roots of Historical Criticism and the Secularization of Scripture 1300-1700, which is more than twice the size. This is a welcome development; it makes their important contributions accessible to a larger audience.

While the story begins with Marsilius and Ockham and their Erastian belief in the supremacy of the state over the Church, the reader will encounter many familiar faces. John Wycliffe, esteemed by Protestants as the “Morning Star” of the Reformation, argued that “the pope ought, as he formerly was, to be subject to Caesar.” The monarch would then employ “doctors and worshipers of the divine law” to interpret the Bible. Martin Luther also called for the German princes to wrest ecclesial power away from corrupt bishops and the Roman pontiff, and grant him unequaled interpretive authority. Indeed, Luther asked the prince of Saxony to expel fellow reformer Andreas Bodenstein von Karlstadt because of the latter’s radical teachings. Around the same time, Machiavelli viewed the biblical text as material for furthering secular political ends.

All of these men influenced the court of English King Henry VIII, who recognized that the Reformation offered an opportunity to consolidate his political power. Thus, he pursued the Act of Supremacy in 1534 to grant him “supreme” headship over the Church of England, followed by the dissolution of monasteries, closure of shrines, and seizure of Church wealth. His King’s Book then declared that individuals must be subject to the “particular church” of the region in which they live, and obey the “Christian kings and princes” to whom they are subject.

Other Englishmen would further endorse this thinking. In Leviathan, Thomas Hobbes asserts that there is only “one chief Pastor” who is “according to the law of Nature. . .the civil sovereign.” Hobbes also rejected many of the supernatural elements of Scripture, as well as Heaven and Hell. John Locke, dismayed by the violence and distemper caused by the English Civil War, endorsed a state-controlled church whose most important feature would be “toleration,” since religious sentiments were private matters “of the mind.” For Locke, Jesus was ultimately a political messiah whose teachings focused on the perpetuation of a “civil morality.”

There are many other actors in this torrid tale – Baruch Spinoza, J. Richard Simon, John Toland – but enough is clear from the above to appreciate the consequences of these religio-political trends. Proto-Reformers called for dethroning the Catholic hierarchy’s supremacy over biblical interpretation. The Reformers, relying on princes and kings, put that wish into practice. And political philosophers and state-sanctioned scholars normalized it. Wherever the Catholic Church ceased to exert ecclesial authority, the state took up the reins.

There has always been this tension between Church and state. St. Ambrose excommunicated the emperor Theodosius because of his execution of 7,000 citizens of Thessalonica. Pope Gregory VII excommunicated the Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV because of a dispute over investiture. And Thomas Becket’s resistance to English King Henry II’s attempts to control the Church resulted in his murder at Canterbury Cathedral.

There is actually something healthy about this tension: when the state and the Church both operate strong spheres of power and influence, they serve as checks upon one another. Kings and governments cannot pursue any policy without risking moral condemnation from ecclesial leadership that will undermine their popular support. And Church corruption and nepotism can be used by secular authorities eager to usurp power.

Hahn’s and Wiker’s history tracks the growing imbalance in favor of the state, a disparity whose roots can be traced back to the late Medieval period. The ubiquitous promotion of Biblical interpretations that serve secular, liberal political agendas related to sex and race is only the latest manifestation of this centuries-old trend. To reverse it requires a return to a more ancient understanding that the Bible is, before all else, the book of the Church, rather than the state or its acolytes in the media or the academy. Catholics need to support and celebrate churchmen who appreciate and seek to realize that essential mission.


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To: smvoice
1 Peter was written latest by 62 AD

Babylon was a village at that time. In 275 AD Seleukos I Nicator set up the city of Seleucia across the river and forcibly moved the population there.

By the time of the Parthians in the latter half of the 2nd century BC, Ctesiphon was built close by and Babylon was reduced to abandoned ruins. Later people came back to create a small village.

Peter could not have been there in 60 AD. And don't say that it was Seleucia or Ctesiphon - because they were referred to as Seleucia/Ctesiphon, not Babylonia - even by the first century Christians.

It is a historical fact that the city of Babylon was still in existence at that time (60 A.D) -- actually it isn't.

did you read Josephus, book 18, chap.9; book 19, chapter 1?

Book 18 chapter 8 refers to the PROVINCE of Babylonia and not the city of Babylon.

In particular it specifically refers to city of Babylonia called Neerda and Nisibis NOT to Babylon

=

And to book 19 -- that doesn't even refer to the province of Babylonia except in the title

Have you, smvoice, even read this or did you just get it from some site?
241 posted on 08/13/2021 12:29:10 AM PDT by Cronos ( One cannot desire freedom from the Cross, especially when one is especially chosen for the cross)
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To: Kevmo

The Caucus “protection” is fine if you are discussing a topic within and specific to the group alone.

This article is not - it addresses various Christian beliefs. And it SHOULD be kept open to hear all sides.

the problem is that some just head into diatribes


242 posted on 08/13/2021 1:19:40 AM PDT by Cronos ( One cannot desire freedom from the Cross, especially when one is especially chosen for the cross)
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To: Cronos

There are [open] threads under the religion forum so that discussion can be more inclusive. Indeed, this thread was eventually brought under the religion forum.

This POS thread was a troll from the beginning.


243 posted on 08/13/2021 3:17:51 AM PDT by Kevmo ( 600 political prisoners in Washington, DC. You cannot comply your way out of tyranny.)
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To: smvoice
You send me a Catholic tract regarding Peter in Rome??

Just to show the 'thinking' that went into the "Peter was in Rome" mantra.

244 posted on 08/13/2021 3:45:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MurphsLaw
9 And call none YOUR father upon earth; for one is YOUR father, who is in heaven.
 
I guess it can be stressed differently:
 
9 And call none your Father upon earth; for one is your Father, who is in heaven.
 
 
 
 

WHO do you know calls a Priest..MY Father on earth....and then turns around and says... "OUR FATHER, who art in Heaven??
 
Not many.  But many who say,  "OUR FATHER, who art in Heaven...", then say , "Nice homily, Father Jones. It was within the 7-10 minute range that we all can sit thru."
 
 

245 posted on 08/13/2021 3:56:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MurphsLaw
So lets HONOR ALL FATHERS (and Mothers) In the way they are meant to be....
Without twisting scripture....

Sorry 'Mary'.

You now, according to Scripture, are only the MOTHER of Jesus (and his brothers).

246 posted on 08/13/2021 4:02:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MurphsLaw
Matthew 12:46
While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, His mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to Him.
 

Mark 6:3
Isn't this the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon?
 
 
John 7:3-6
3 So his brothers said to him, "Depart from here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also can see your works that you are doing. 4 For no one does anything in secret and yet he himself desires to be publicly recognized. If you are doing these things, reveal yourself to the world!"
5 (For not even his brothers believed in him.).
6 So Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but ...
 
 
 

247 posted on 08/13/2021 4:05:10 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MurphsLaw
Without twisting scripture....


Behold how Rome manages to 'use' Scripture to justify...
 

Looking first at Scripture, the principal basis for the doctrine of Mary as Spiritual Mother of all humanity is found in the Gospel of John. In this scene, Mary is at Calvary at the foot of the Cross with John, the beloved disciple. John tells us, "When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, 'Woman, behold your son.' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold your mother'" (John 19: 26-27). Throughout the Church's history, numerous popes, theologians, and writers have confirmed their belief that here John is symbolic of all humanity. In other words, that Jesus from the Cross gave His Mother to every human person for all time.

Our Lord said, "Behold your mother." He was not suggesting that Mary become our mother, but that Mary is our Mother. And to Mary He gave us as children. But, if this is true, how do we make theological sense of this relationship? Turning again to Scripture, we can best understand it by considering St. Paul's beautiful doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ (cf. Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 4:15). In this whole Body, St. Paul refers to Christ as the Head and the Church as the Body. Head and Body make up the entire and whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ.

Now, if we say that Mary gave birth to Jesus, the Head of the Body, then it must be that she gave birth to the entire Body since a true body cannot be separated. Thus, it would mean that she gave birth to the members as well. In giving physical birth to Jesus, we can say that Mary made it possible for us to receive spiritual life through Him. We were dead, and through Him we have come back to life. And it was Mary's "yes" at the Annunciation that made our rebirth possible. To question this is to question the plan of God. For it was He who decided from all eternity that it would be so. And the list of those who have believed it is almost endless.

 

https://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=233



248 posted on 08/13/2021 4:16:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
To question this is to question the plan of God Rome.

For it was He she who decided from all eternity 'Pope' Peter onward that it would be so.

And the list of those who have believed it is almost endless.

249 posted on 08/13/2021 4:20:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Cronos
the problem is that some just head into diatribes


 

 


'When I tell you what imagery found in Scripture REALLY means,'
 the magnificant Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather superior tone,
' it means just whomever I choose it to mean, neither more nor less;
but sometimes two or more different things at once.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can define imagery to mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, C.SS.R, S.S.L., O.F.M, S.T.D 'which is to be master - that's all.'  


250 posted on 08/13/2021 4:27:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Cronos
Cronos "“while Rome requires RC rulers to exterminate all she deemed to be heretics or loose their authority.” Another one of your blatantly false and non historical statements. They go well with the non biblical texts in the rest of your answers. There was no such “requirement” so why are you making things up. Secular authorities saw having a common religious base as a good way to control the populace."

Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council (canon 3), 1215: Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath....But if a temporal ruler,....should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler’s vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance

"As usual, you added your own false interpretation and added words to the text. The 1215 Lateran council says " that they will seek, in so far as they can, to expel from the lands subject to their jurisdiction all heretics designated by the church in good faith." not "exterminate" That's how your ilk adds words to historical document as well as to the Bible, right?"

Rather, as usual, being clearly refuted then rather than admitting it, 4 days later you add another FALSE charge, accusing me of adding words to historical document as well as to the Bible, while not only have you utterly failed to substantiate the latter but the former as well, for what I posted is copied from the very source that I diligently provided the link to, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp, and which is a Catholic (if Jesuit) source, well know for its Internet Medieval Sourcebook. And it lists its source as Roman Catholic priest Father. H. J. Schroeder, a translator of the decrees of the Council of Trent. And which text is here and does indeed say "exterminate."

Therefore whether the text says "expel" or "exterminate," your charge that I added words is another lie, and your contention is with the Catholic sources - "your ilk" not mine - which use "exterminate." What the Latin text says I know not, yet whether by excommunication and expulsion or actual slaying Catholic rulers were indeed required exterminate - remove, destroy or wipe out completely - those she deemed to be heretics.

And the use of physical force itself was sanctioned, including in slaying. Thus we have condemned as error, "That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit." (Exsurge Domine, Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520 http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm) "Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination [or expulsion] of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land." Punishment itself by physical means was historically affirmed as being a right of the RCC: "The Church has the right,..to admonish or warn its members, ecclesiastical or lay, who have not conformed to its laws and also, if needful to punish them by physical means, that is, coercive jurisdiction." - Catholic encyclopedia, Jurisdiction (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm) Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] The (Catholic) Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect." Section V, Errors Concerning the Church and Her Rights, #24. (http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM) While technically the Catholic church itself may have never executed heretics, yet she knew what Catholic governments would do and used coercive physical means to indict persons and sanctioned and enabled execution through her excommunication.

Meaning that you can try to absolve your church by placing the blame on secular authorities wanting "a common religious base as a good way to control the populace" but the reality is that Rome supported the physical punishment and execution of those she handed over to the state as heretics, even if treatment by the Inquisition was relatively less horrific than the purely secular system, and at times she did seek to prevent abuses, and despite the number of those slain often being exaggerated. Rome required RC rulers to exterminate/eliminate all she deemed to be heretics or loose their authority.

Pope Innocent IV, Ad extirpanda, papal bull, promulgated on May 15, 1252, by Pope Innocent IV, which explicitly authorized (and defined the appropriate circumstances for) the use of torture by the Inquisition for eliciting confessions from heretics, and provided for funding to be used to extirpate heretics,.

The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody,{8} provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs, as actual robbers and murderers of souls and thieves of the sacraments of God and Christian faith, to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know, and specify their motives, {9} and those whom they have seduced, and those who have lodged them and defended them, as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed...He must obtain all fines in coin within three months, and divide them up in the manner to be set forth hereafter, and convict of crime those who cannot pay, and hold them in prison until they can...

(34) The head of state or ruler must divide up all the property of the heretics that is seized or discovered by the aforesaid officials, and the fines exacted from these heretics, in the form and manner following: one-third shall go to the government of the state or district. The second as a reward of the industry of the office shall go to the officials who handled this particular case. The third shall be deposited in some secure place to be kept by the aforesaid Diocesan bishop and inquisitors, and spent as they shall think fit to promote the faith and extirpate heretics, this policy prevailing in spite of any statute that has been or shall be enacted against this dividing-up of the heretics' property. - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1252-05-15,_SS_Innocentius_IV,_Bulla_%27Ad_Extirpanda%27,_EN.pdf

..in the 1180s, the Church began to panic at the spread of heresy, and thereafter it took the lead from the State, though it maintained the legal fiction that convicted and unrepentant heretics were merely 'deprived of the protection of the Church', which was (as they termed it) 'relaxed', the civil power then being free to burn them without committing mortal sin. Relaxation was accompanied by a formal plea for mercy; in fact this was meaningless, and the individual civil officer (sheriffs and so forth) had no choice but to burn, since otherwise he was denounced as a 'defender of heretics', and plunged into the perils of the system himself. (Paul Johnson, History of Christianity, © 1976 Athenium, p. 253 )

From the The Catholic Encyclopedia (heresy):

Like other powers and rights, the power of rejecting heresy adapts itself in practice to circumstances of time and place, and, especially, of social and political conditions. At the beginning it worked without special organization. The ancient discipline charged the bishops with the duty of searching out the heresies in their diocese and checking the progress of error by any means at their command.... under the Christian emperors rigorous measures were enforced against the goods and persons of heretics..... The burning of heretics was first decreed in the eleventh century. The Synod of Verona (1184) imposed on bishops the duty to search out the heretics in their dioceses and to hand them over to the secular power. Other synods, and the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) under Pope Innocent III, repeated and enforced this decree, especially the Synod of Toulouse (1229), which established inquisitors in every parish (one priest and two laymen). Everyone was bound to denounce heretics, the names of the witnesses were kept secret; after 1243, when Innocent IV sanctioned the laws of Emperor Frederick II and of Louis IX against heretics, torture was applied in trials; the guilty persons were delivered up to the civil authorities and actually burnt at the stake. (see Index of Prohibited Books). - https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

The codification of legislation against heresy took place over half a century, roughly 1180-1230, when it culminated in the creation of a permanent tribunal, staffed by Dominican friars, who worked from a fixed base in conjunction with the episcopate, and were endowed with generous authority.

In 1184 Pope Lucius III required bishops to make a judicial inquiry, or inquisition, for heresy in their dioceses, a provision renewed by the fourth Lateran Council in 1215. Episcopal inquisitions, however, proved ineffective because of the regional nature of the bishop’s power and because not all bishops introduced inquisitions in their dioceses; the papacy gradually assumed authority over the process, though bishops never lost the right to lead inquisitions. In 1227 Pope Gregory IX appointed the first judges delegate as inquisitors for heretical depravity—many, though not all, of whom were Dominican and Franciscan friars. Papal inquisitors had authority over everyone except bishops and their officials. There was no central authority to coordinate their activities, but after 1248 or 1249, when the first handbook of inquisitorial practice was written, inquisitors adopted common procedures...

When instituting an inquiry in a district, an inquisitor would normally declare a period of grace during which those who voluntarily confessed their own involvement in heresy and that of others would be given only light penances. The inquisitor used these confessions to compile a list of suspects whom he summoned to his tribunal. Failure to appear was considered evidence of guilt. The trial was often a battle of wits between the inquisitor and the accused. The only other people present were a notary, who kept a record of the proceedings, and sworn witnesses, who attested the record’s accuracy. No lawyer would defend a suspect for fear of being accused of abetting heresy, and suspects were not normally told what charges had been made against them or by whom. The accused might appeal to the pope before proceedings began, but this involved considerable expense...

Heretics who admitted their errors but refused to recant were handed over to the secular authorities and burned at the stake. There were usually not many cases of this kind, because the chief aim of the inquisitors was to reconcile heretics to the church. On rare occasions, however, large public executions did take place, as at Verona in 1278, when some 200 Cathars were burned....

Even where it did operate—in much of Italy and in kingdoms such as France and Aragon—the inquisition relied entirely on the secular authorities to arrest and execute those whom it named and to defray all its expenses. The money came partly from the sale of the confiscated property of convicted heretics. - https://www.britannica.com/topic/inquisition

Convictions of thought-crimes being difficult to secure, the Inquisition used procedures banned in other courts, and so contravened town charters, written and customary laws, and virtually every aspect of established jurisprudence. The names of hostile witnesses were withheld, anonymous informers were used, the accusations of personal enemies were allowed, the accused were denied the right of defence, or of defending counsel; and there was no appeal. The object, quite simply, was to produce convictions at any cost; only thus, it was thought, could heresy be quenched. Hence depositors were not named; all a suspect could do was to produce a list of his enemies, and he was allowed to bring forward witnesses to testify that such enemies existed, but for no other purpose. On the other hand, the prosecution could use the evidence of criminals, heretics, children and accomplices, usually forbidden in other courts...

Once an area became infected by heresy, and the system moved in, large numbers of people became entangled in its toils. Children of heretics could not inherit, as the stain was vicarial; grandchildren could not hold ecclesiastical benefices unless they successfully denounced someone. Everyone from the age of fourteen (girls from twelve) were required to take public oaths every two years to remain good Catholics and denounce heretics..

Torture was not employed regularly until near the end of the thirteenth century (except by secular officials without reference to the Inquisition) but suspects could be held in prison and summoned again and again until they yielded, the object of the operation being to obtain admissions or denunciations. When torture was adopted it was subjected to canonical restraints - if it produced nothing on the first occasion it was forbidden to repeat it. But such regulations were open to glosses; Francis Pegna, the leading Inquisition commentator, wrote:

'But if, having been tortured reasonably (decenter), he will not confess the truth, set other sorts of torments before him, saying that he must pass through all these unless he will confess the truth. If even this fails, a second or third day may be appointed to him, either in terrorem or even in truth, for the continuation (not repetition) of torture; for tortures may not be repeated unless fresh evidence emerges against him; then, indeed, they may, for against continuation there is no prohibition.' Paul Johnson, History of Christianity , © 1976 Athenium, see pgs. 253-255.

The use of the secular arm to physically eliminate opposition was not new. Damasus 1 (366-384) is reported to have begun his reign by employing a gang of thugs in seeking to secure his chair, which carried out a three-day massacre of his rivals supporters. Yet true to form, Rome made him a "saint."

On Sunday, October 1 his partisans seized the Lateran Basilica, and he was there consecrated. He then sought the help of the city prefect (the first occasion of a Pope in enlisting the civil power against his adversaries), and he promptly expelled Ursinus and his followers from Rome. Mob violence continued until October 26, when Damasus's men attacked the Liberian Basilica, where the Ursinians had sought refuge; the pagan historian Ammianus Marcellinus reports that they left 137 dead on the field. Damasus was now secure on his throne; but the bishops of Italy were shocked by the reports they received, and his moral authority was weakened for several years.... — Kelly, J. N. D. (1989). The Oxford Dictionary of Popes. USA: Oxford University Press. pp. 32 ,34. Cf. (The First Pontiff: Pope Damasus I and the Expansion of the Roman Primacy , pp. 15,33-34)

Then you have the history of Rome against the Jews .

Thus besides the use of coercive force, then it remains a fact that "Rome required RC rulers to exterminate/eliminate all she deemed to be heretics or loose their authority."

251 posted on 08/13/2021 5:45:59 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)
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To: Cronos
"Furthermore, you give examples from 1215. The first protesters and reformatters were in the 1500s. "

Irrelevant and more absurdity. Besides schisms preceding the needed Reformation, the first protesters and reformatters is that Rome itself, seeing as distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels). And having added books to the most ancient OT canon,

the protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants.” “...the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia>Canon of the Old Testament; htttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) The Protestant canon of the Old Testament is the same as the Palestinian canon. (The Catholic Almanac, 1960, p. 217) And as far as "reformat" is concerned, scandal of the Sistine Vulgate by the zealous Pope Sixtus V

Which has seen such extensive debate here already, and refutation of the RC position, by the grace of God that it warrants no more here.

252 posted on 08/13/2021 5:46:17 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save + be baptized + follow Him!)
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To: Elsie

The “thinking” is their 1st problem, lol!


253 posted on 08/13/2021 6:20:12 AM PDT by smvoice (I WILL NOT WEAR THE RIBBON. OR THE MASK)
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To: Cronos

Oh, so Peter was the pope of a village?

Lol


254 posted on 08/13/2021 6:23:06 AM PDT by smvoice (I WILL NOT WEAR THE RIBBON. OR THE MASK)
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To: smvoice; Cronos

Let’s see; there was an Indian, a biker, a construction guy, and a pope.

The Babylon Village People


255 posted on 08/13/2021 6:48:49 AM PDT by smvoice (I WILL NOT WEAR THE RIBBON. OR THE MASK)
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To: smvoice; Cronos

“It’s fun to pray at the
Y...M...C...A”

Babylon Village motto


256 posted on 08/13/2021 7:08:31 AM PDT by smvoice (I WILL NOT WEAR THE RIBBON. OR THE MASK)
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To: Kevmo

Sorry, I kind of ignored this thread for a while.

The article is good and not sectarian. We went off the rails in post 3, yes


257 posted on 08/13/2021 7:19:58 AM PDT by Cronos ( One cannot desire freedom from the Cross, especially when one is especially chosen for the cross)
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To: Cronos

not sectarian? That’s why we have a religion moderator, who determines such things with more deliberation.


258 posted on 08/13/2021 11:31:19 AM PDT by Kevmo ( 600 political prisoners in Washington, DC. You cannot comply your way out of tyranny.)
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To: Elsie

Nice...you got my point.


259 posted on 08/13/2021 2:20:07 PM PDT by MurphsLaw (" For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned")
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To: SouthernClaire
Thank you for your excellent comments. It can be quite trying to repeatedly explain how God sees us in Christ when the one you're conversing with insists upon being justified in their flesh. PRIDE is behind it and a wretched blindness to the truth:

    O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe? (Galatians 3:1-5)

It doesn't seem to matter how many times we have said we are NOT saying "Christians...have a license to sin without penalty, to commit lawlessness", they will still lie and say we are. That should be all the evidence we need to recognize the accursed gospel they preach and withstand it by the power of the WORD. Thank you again for standing up for the blessed gospel of the grace of God. May God grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.

260 posted on 08/13/2021 6:42:15 PM PDT by boatbums (Lord, make my life a testimony to the value of knowing you.)
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