What Are Justification and Sanctification?

"And yet the basis for your Faith alone proposition is found no where in Scripture-" I think we have found the heart of your problem!

How many times have the passages from John chapter six been posted - the actual words from Jesus saying believe and be saved - for the truth to get through your Catholic wall? I would post the passages once again if it could break through the wall of lies at the Heart of your religion. But you show with your ignoring the first fifty times the passages have been posted that you refuse truth in favor of the dogma taught to you.

I am sorry your are so dead to the truth,. but the choice has been yours to ignore truth.

John 6:28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

The spirit in you will not allow the Truth just posted for you to come into your mind unobstructed. Right as you read the verses, a spirit of division and confusion is echoing a 'yes but' to divert your mind away to a different issue, and that is the reality of what is happening in your soul. Is your spirit alive in Christ?

John 6:40 harkens back to what Jesus showed Nicodemus in John 3, regarding the snake on a poole which a Hebrew had only to look upon the brass snake and be cured of snake bite! This explanation had never been offered before! Jesus made the comparison to all/any who look upon and believe will have eternal life.

Now is the time, today is the hour that eternal life begins for any who will believe in whom God has sent for our deliverance from the poison of sin. There are more passages but I believe if you reject the words of Jesus himself you are unable to hear the truth found all over the New Testament messages.

And yet the basis for your Faith alone proposition is found no where in Scripture-

It appears that Scripture contradicts you:

John 6:25-40
²⁵When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
²⁶Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. ²⁷Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
²⁸Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
²⁹Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
³⁰So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? ³¹Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’^[c]”
³²Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. ³³For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
³⁴“Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
³⁵Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. ³⁶But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. ³⁷All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ³⁸For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ³⁹And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ⁴⁰For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

- for the truth to get through your Catholic wall?

Is this the same wall kind of wall that show you countless citations from earlist Church fathers and their writings for Infant Baptism- and its methods that have been used by the Church since the BEGINNING - and you still deny them?
Is this the kind of wall you speak of?

I don't ignore you John 6 verses- they do not prove or validate Faith ALONE… and that was your task - and that's what I have asked from you and you tap dance around and not provided me the clarity of a here-here…

You want John 6 really? John in particular...oooh could be some hard sayinsg... but if that's the "hill" you want to be saved on - lets havaluke.

By your isolating scripture verse logic then- I can have EVERlasting life BY EATING….. I don't have to “believe” anything…

+++ 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever.

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

+++ So am I saved by Eucharist ALONE Then? That is ALL is commanded by the Lord…or then do you wonder… Do you have NOT Life in you then if you disbelieve this? as Jesus says. Or do we dismiss the Lord's command here? Or are you suggesting that Christ is contradicting himself here? Or does he mean we have to ‘believe” AND eat his flesh- for everlasting Life? Perhaps… but there is no Sola in that.

Do you know how many ways the Bible says we are saved??? No time for that now… but Faith ALONE does not fit – unless you wish to be accused with denying “the actual words from Jesus saying believe and be saved - for the truth to get through your ~~Catholic~~ DIY religion wall?

I would like your take there for sue… but onto wordsmithing.. and “believe” or “believing” – and just what that means to us… Steve Ray calls “believe” a “pregnant” word. It has many meanings and contexts – especially in scripture. Not enough time to go into that but I came across a verse that has some value for both of us.

+++If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

Is belief in Christ Works sufficient? Now in another verse Belief is usually mis-translated and should be considered- John 3:36

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever adisobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God's wrath.

We can clearly see JOHN has some idea that obedience is a component of “believe”… Belief therefore- clearly- can not be a singular ideal of intellectual acceptance…it must be more…again the pregnant word thing…

Besides … the Bible CLEARLY states “believe” is not a full measure of Faith.. and is clearly insuff. icient as we see it can be demons that “believe” in Christ…..

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! EVEN the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?

Even the demon Christ cleansed of the man believed who Christ was – “And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

Clearly we agree, demons will not be saved...
I'm out of time… there's much more… let me know your thoughts on this….

Faith alone in Christ alone saves as in being Justified by the Only One Who can do it. And Jesus told you believe in Him is the ONLY way to receive eternal life. Jesus even analogized it with the snake in the desert, so it would be so simple even a catholic should be able to see it.

There are two more azpects to salvation that are not Justification. The second phase of Salvation by His abiding Spirit is called sanctification. This Saving from the power of sin in your life. It is not justification because ONLY GOD can jsutify and He has chosen to do that entirely based upon believing in Whom He sent for Justifying a sinner.

The reason sanctification is not justification is a concept a works based religion like Catholicism cannot comprehend: by Justifying me because of faith alone in Christ alone assigns ALL the glory to The Lord Jesus and none to you. Since you are not Christ, your salvation from the power of sin is a process GOD expects you to be intimately involved with, because His abiding presence in your separated from your soul SPIRIT must learn to exhibit the character of God's family. There is no thing you can do or fail to do in the sanctification process which will chnge the status GOD by His Grace gave you -membership in His family via The belief in Christ alone for saving you from the penalty of sin which draped your spirit BEFORE GOD justified you in the way that brings glory ONLY to Christ.

There is a third salvation coming which will remove me from the 4D realm where the man of sin is going to reign for seven years. I am a member of the Family of God with His Hooly Spirit abiding in my born again spirit, so He is going to remove me from this realm before the beginning of the reign of the man of sin. This is salvation from the presence of the man of sin. God will do this by in the twinkling of an eye transforming me into a being like Jesus is now, because as John wrote in 1 John 3:2 I will be able to see Him as He is because in that moment I will be like Him, in a glorified body.

So let's review: Only God can justify me before His Righteous eyes, and God has chosen to do this in such a way that ONLY Jesus is glorified in my being justified. A second phase of my salvation is what is known as the sanctification phase, where God expects me to leran how to live inthe character of His family members. A third phase of my salvation is when He transforms me int he twinkling of an eye, to be in a glorified, higher dimensional coordiante system where Jesus is now and return tot he Father's House with Jesus (John 14).

I know it is shocking for you, but there is ONLY one function which activates God Justifying you as if you have never sinned, BELIEF, Faithe, trust in Christ alone by faith alone. After that moment of justification, God expects me to accept the guidance of His abiding presence and get saved from the power of sin that directed my livng before He birthed me from above.

Try it ... you'll like! Justified = saved from the penalty of sin; sanctification = saved from the power of sin ; glorified = saved from the presence of the man of sin in this 4D realm.

One last clue: when God justifies you, He will separate your sou and s[irit so that as He abides in your born again spirit His Spirit is not in contact with sin, sin which is sourced int he soul you inherited from Adam.(Heb 4:12 & Rev 1:16)

---but Faith ALONE does not fit –

Sigh...

Too bad that JESUS did not indicate this...

John 6:28-40
²⁸Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
²⁹Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
³⁰So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? ³¹Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’^[c]”
³²Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. ³³For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
³⁴“Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
³⁵Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. ³⁶But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe . ³⁷All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. ³⁸For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. ³⁹And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. ⁴⁰For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believe in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

I was hoping that you might respond to my thoughts. I don’t mind being wrong- as long as a search for the truth is a fruitful one. Yes, I understand how you feel about your threefold process (tenses) and if it works for you great. I don’t think you follow what Luther desired entirely as well, and I don’t know all of the differing non-Catholic justification theories either.
You have misconceptions about the Church though, (that it is Pelagian or that Christ’s Resurrection is insufficient) that I couldn't let go unanswered -as we must always have a good defense of Christianity.

Your latter selection of John 6 was/is very curious to me... as I mentioned. We have come full circle I believe, and it has been interesting- I hope you will agree. The youngest disciple who laid on Christ at the Last Supper, went to Calvary with him… the Disciple whom Jesus Loved and entrusted his Mother to.….. St. John's relationship with Christ was different then his synoptic colleagues. Full circle yes, because if you remember this conversation originally began by me simply asking...
“Where is the Love?”

Nowhere in the original posted comment did I find the word Love - as in your last summary post. Scripturally, your evidence for faith ALONE is lacking- and John 6 is not proof- or where your defense should be. I think it "works" against the notion of faith alone. (Not disregarding though, the verses of James where we must accept contradiction of inerrant Scripture where in James tells us explicitly -"So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.- You see that by works a man is justified- NOT by Faith Alone") And St. Paul does not contradict St. James either… and they are compatible in this. Yes, my Catholic wall will not abide in ignoring St. James.

Your Faith Alone defense should remain in Galatians and Romans, but you still need to do so considering the pastoral context of what St. Paul was trying to convey specifically to those communities, at that time of the early Church.

John, on the other hand, is the epitome of the “Come to Jesus Moment” as he showed in Christ’s Last Days. For whatever reasons, John was special to Christ- and that is reflected in his Gospel. His logos is that we must "come" to Jesus- we must do this - for Salvation. John intimately knew we MUST imitate faithful obedience in God- in imitation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the Father within this New Covenant - : the New Adam obeys, where the First Adam did not obey God.

11Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
12Otherwise believe for the very works' sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
40 But you are not willing to COME TO ME that you may have life.

36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

The opposite of however we translate "belief" for John, was to Disobey. It was not "Disbelief" as commonly inferred in translation but rather "disobey" (Gk. Apeithon)Obedience was the key component of a faith life for the Apostles. Is it not apparent that these Chosen men of Christ are battling a faith alone mentality back in their day as well?

John clearly says- Obeying God, coming to him in Love, Faith and Hope- with the greatest being Love – is THE path of Salvation- and that which must go beyond a simple gaze upon the Cross- or an intellectual belief or creed. Coming to Christ is where our Salvation is. We must make that move, Faith alone can’t accomplish that, nor does it require that.
Faith alone says I can “believe” in Christ, but I do not have to Love him.
Faith Alone says I can “believe” in Christ- but do not have to obey him.
Faith Alone says I need not be transformed by Christ, as long as I “believe”.

Now I know you don’t think this way- but nonetheless “Victor” Faith Alone is capable of this – and as I thinks as what began with the Israelites- all the way through to to the Pharisees.. part of the Jews path to breaking their covenant. Faith Alone evolves in what James says it will be - dead faith. One can tweak the Justification formula or process as they like- but it does not fit with Scripture.

We should all be haunted by what Christ WANTS from US……

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “DO this and you will live.”

Just as Jesus cursed the fig tree that bore NO fruit.…. Let us also take note.

Peace.

You asserted, "We must make that move, Faith alone can’t accomplish that, nor does it require that."

Faith alone in Christ alone, not trusting in my efforts, is the issue. The Greek word used and translated at various verses as 'faith' 'belief' 'trust' is derived from the verb meaning to faithe. Tursting in Christ as Savior is an active sense. That active sense cannot occur unless FIRST one is born again into the family of God, by obeying what Jesus said we must do to do the work God requires, namely BELIEVE. NOt believe and do works. James wrote His epistle to Jews, Peter wrote his letters to Jews, John worte his letters to Jews. Paul wrote to gentiles, mainkly born again gentiles, some of whom were still stuck in their learned sinful behavior. They remained Christians, saved gentiles, but they had not yet learned how to apply their justified state in order to change their behavior into the character reflection of the fqamily of God. They possessed the righteousness of Christ but had not yet learned how to rely upon the still small voice of the abiding Holy Spirit in order to change their behavior patterns.

Justification is soomthing ONLY God can do for you or me. We cannot earn it and we are unable to retain that Justified state. It is The GRace of God in Christ that counts us as righteous because that method focuses the glory upon Whom and Whose righteousness has been counted to us.

If yopu ever realize that the notion of maintaining via works the Justified state which Only God can do is the same as working to get eternal life, you might stop trusting in your behavior patterns as a emans to strive for eternal life. In that moment you will be born again by the Grace of God. That moment of realization is the 'exchange' moment when God counts to you the righteousness of Christ. THAT is a transaction you cannot make to happen via obedience to sacraments and rituals. That exchange moment is God glorifying Jesus as His righteousness accounts you suddenly IN the family as a member of the Body of Christ.

I sincerely hope to see you in the clouds one day soon. Trust in Christ alone by faithing (yup, the verb form) alone and it will be.

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