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To: MAAG
Sigh... Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus.

there is no evidence that Mary had other children. More specifically, the Christian writers of the first century give no evidence indicating that the “brothers” are children of Mary, mother of Jesus.

The evidence we do have is the following. Paul, in Galatians 1:19, refers to meeting “James, brother of the Lord.” Paul refers to multiple “brothers of the Lord” in another epistle but does not name them. “Brother of the Lord” is clearly a title held by a small number—likely relatives of Jesus—but little more can be said from that. The Gospels of Mark and Matthew name them. Mark 6:3 says that Jesus’ brothers are “James and Joses and Judas and Simon.” Matthew 13:55 has “James and Joseph and Simon and Judas.” At this point the “brothers” appear to be associated with Jesus’ mother Mary and his “sisters.”

However, the names appear again later in each Gospel at the Crucifixion. Matthew 27:56 says that among those at the cross were “Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.” Likewise, Mark 15:40 has “Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.” The form of the names given in each Gospel match the forms of the first two “brothers” of Jesus and clearly refer to them. But this “Mary” is never identified as the mother of Jesus, which one would expect if she were. That is, women were always identified by their husbands or by their eldest sons. Since this Mary is never identified by Matthew and Mark as being Jesus’ mother, it appears that the Gospel writers are identifying another Mary as the mother of the brothers. . At best, then, they can only be cousins of Jesus and not children of Mary.

This is supported independently by the Gospel of John, which identifies “his mother’s sister, Mary, wife of Clopas” as being at the cross. It seems clear that the Gospels do not recognize Mary as being the mother of the “brothers.” Catholic teaching, then, is based on this understanding of the Gospels and not some arcane attempt to keep Mary as a virgin.

107 posted on 06/11/2021 1:27:17 AM PDT by Cronos ( )
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To: Cronos; MAAG; Elsie

MAAG just cited Matthew 13:55-56 as evidence that Jesus’ mother had other children and you completely side stepped the verse in citing your own view. Now if you want to try reconciling Matthew 13:55-56 a little better with Matthew 27:56...you better explain these words which specifically mention...the father of Jesus.

“5 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?”

The implied mention of Joseph as the “carpenter” whose son is Jesus is tied specifically to the “Mary” described in Matthew 13. And what do we also find?...that this Carpenter’s son ‘s mother was Mary?!! Then we find mention of his “brethren”...James, JOSES or Joseph...in some translations(who was he anyway?...only one mention of him ever in the gospels or at least this particular name),Simon and Judas(but not Iscariot) and then the mention of sisters but not their names....!

It is the mention of “the carpenter’s son” in connection to the Mary who was then connected to Jesus is where your claim of “no evidence” that Mary had other children falls flat.

Now we also know that this Mary...that was married to the Carpenter that was her husband who was known as the father of Jesus was in Jesus’ home town when mention of Jesus family was made in chapter 13...why? This is where lifting verses out of context can be sketchy...so lets look at Chapter 13:53-58...”3 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him.

But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”

58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.”

Yes I know about the Catholic argument that these “brethren and sisters” could have been “cousins” based on variable translations from the Aramaic; that is a circular argument colored from Catholic doctrine the Mary must remain perpetually virgin with no children from the time before and after Jesus’ birth. In which case if these “siblings” be cousins, why the mention of only Mary and the “Carpenter” whose son was Jesus, but no mention of aunts and uncles? It is because the intention was to describe the “Carpenter’s son” Jesus’ immediate nuclear family of Mom his named brothers and his un-named sisters.

Oh and lets not forget Matthew 12:46...I will include thru verse 50 for added context...”Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Again in 12:46...a specific mention of Jesus’ mother connected with her other sons, “his brethren” as opposed to the description of Jesus pointing out of the disciples as being those who do the work of the Father as his “brother, sister, AND MOTHER”.

Mary had other kids but I see no reason that the fact diminishes Mary as the virgin mother of Jesus, who was seen as “blessed above all women”. God blessed Mary and Joseph with additional children which was considered an honorable thing back then especially the number that appeared to have survived childhood and reached adulthood. And the Bible says that “the marriage bed is undefiled” so having additional married sex with Joseph which led to other children was no violation of Mary’s virtue, grace, and honor.


108 posted on 06/11/2021 2:54:14 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Cronos
...there is no evidence that Mary had other children.

Other than a couple of Saints of the Catholic church writing that Jesus was Mary's FIRST born child, instead of ONLY child.

 
Matthew 1:25
...Joseph "knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son, and he called his name Jesus."
 
Luke 2:7
"And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn."
 
 
 
as well as...
 
Luke 8:19-20
19 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him, but they were unable to reach Him because of the crowd.
20 He was told, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see You.”
 

 
But; since Catholics can explain away a clear command of Jesus to 'call no man father', sweeping away Mary's other kids should be a piece of cake.

110 posted on 06/11/2021 4:08:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Cronos
I'm not sure I would agree with your reasoning. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 9:5

If, as you suggest, people are lumped together as "brothers", it would seem strange to exclude Peter (Cephas) from the "brothers of the Lord".

You also excluded Matthew 1:

This verse lends support for when Mary "and His brothers" are outside the house asking Jesus to come home in Matthew 12:46, these would be His legitimate family. In fact it makes what our Lord states next, "But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!" a little bit odd. This story is repeated both in Mark and Luke. John also talks about Christ's brothers in John 2:12 (when Christ, His mother, and His brothers went down to stay in Capernaum and in John 7:3-10 (when His brothers would not believe Him and were egging Him on to reveal Himself). The gospel writers make no attempt to hide the fact of Christ's earthly family. Nor does Paul or Luke.

Mary wouldn't necessarily be identified as the mother of Jesus any more than James and Jude didn't start their letters identifying themselves as the "brothers" of Jesus. He was the incarnate God. They identified themselves as "servants" (or slaves) just as every other believer.

The idea of Mary being the Mother of God is a very Catholic idea. :O)

113 posted on 06/11/2021 12:40:41 PM PDT by HarleyD (Dr E-"There are very few shades of grey.")
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