Posted on 10/26/2020 6:10:50 AM PDT by Cronos
Evangelicalism was not enough for Joel and Stephanie Dunn, though they come from several generations of Baptists.
And in desperate pursuit of God, they wound up amid candles, incense, beautifully-painted wooden icons, and Divine Liturgy — in the communion of saints whose lives they now say have provided the medicine for their sin-sick souls.
For the Dunns, things came to a head in 2016 when they realized that their current faith tradition, Southern Baptist, was inadequate. They were received into the Eastern Orthodox Church in 2018. Having been in the church for over a year, they were catechized for about that long in an Antiochan parish in northern California, a parish reportedly "bursting" with new converts from Protestantism.
..."Orthodoxy is not transactional. It's not 'I say a prayer, and now I have a card that gets me out of Hell and gets me into Heaven.' But rather it is being brought into the church life. And in the church life, you can be transformed through the graces that are presented within the spiritual gymnasium that is the church," he said.
...The couple started reading Mathewes-Green's book, Welcome to the Orthodox Church,
"As an evangelical, I always had this mindset, and it may have just been me and not what other people teach, but the idea was that I could remove whatever it was about me and put Jesus in there,” Joel said. “But Orthodoxy flips that around. God doesn't want to remove you from yourself and have Jesus there in place of that; He wants to heal you from all that is wrong with you so you can be who He created you to be.”
Stephanie added, "What really struck me about the Eastern Orthodox Church is in the story of the Good Samaritan. The church is seen as the hospital. Christ is the Good Shepherd. He comes along and picks me up, wounded from sin and my passions and brings me to the hospital for the soul, the church."
...Orthodox Christians understand icons to be windows into Heaven, pictures of the indwelling Christ in people.
The Dunns came to believe, particularly given the heavy emphasis on the Incarnation, that the faith traditions they grew up in were largely Gnostic, that the spiritual realm didn't really ever intersect with reality.
"Orthodoxy is not like that. Every service incorporates all five of your senses. It incorporates your body. You're standing up, sitting down. You're smelling incense. You're singing and hearing bells," Joel said.
During the Divine Liturgy where Eucharist is served, they came to believe they were in this sense of timelessness where they are with the church in Heaven and there have been accounts of seeing angels and Christ come in on the throne.
"The sense of being surrounded by that great cloud of witnesses, the icons do so much to remind us of much of that, that we are surrounded by these people and that we can ask for their intercession," Stephanie said.
...God revealed Himself to us in the form of Christ but the problem is that with all these different denominations, especially within evangelicalism, it mostly rests on Sola Scriptura and lacks tradition, she noted.
"Tradition is what gave us Scripture. Scripture is part of Holy Tradition; it's not the whole of it. That's not all that the Apostles taught. We want to know ‘what else did they teach?’ When Christ revealed Himself to us, He also showed us how He wanted to be worshiped and it looked a lot like Jewish worship."
Today, Joel asks evangelicals to "give Mary a chance."
Asked to expound on what he means by "give her a chance,” he elaborated: "Revere her in a way you haven't before because she provided the Savior."
"And there is a reason that she has been venerated since the beginning of the church and I don't fully understand her role and it's uncomfortable to ask for her intercessions at times, but at the same time, she is the one praying and interceding on behalf of all of us to her Son. And it is through her prayers that most of us come to know Him."
"I grew up my whole just thinking that Mary was just some random chick that just happened to be there at the right time and right place and it's just not so. The history of the church has put her in a place where she should be and if evangelicals could give her a chance, it might open up their world to her."
Stephanie interjected, "Our salvation is not possible without her. And He chose to make it that way."
Joel continued, "And we say in the Liturgy, 'Theotokos (Mother of God) save us’ … If you don't understand that during the Liturgy, we transcend space-time as we know it. We're telling her, ‘Accept what the angel is telling you, accept this child because it is through Him that we shall all be saved.'
"And don't be so literal about everything. Everything is not literal. God didn't set it up that way. We're not computer programs, we're people."
Orthodoxy is daily lived repentance to the glory of God, the Dunns emphasized.
"The most transformative aspect of this whole thing for me has been to see suffering not as something that God — I used to think 'why does God allow this, I did all these things right, this stuff keeps happening, I can't handle it.’ And then you hear of other people who have horrible thing after horrible thing happen,” Stephanie said.
But within Orthodoxy, suffering is seen as a tool, she explained.
And that which you quoted does not state that she “is the source of salvation.” anywhere, not directly and not even indirectly.
It's not the realm of mystery, it's the realm of ignorance...The mysteries of God have been revealed in the scriptures...Apparently these people wanted a more 'religious' looking religion...
"As an evangelical, I always had this mindset, and it may have just been me and not what other people teach, but the idea was that I could remove whatever it was about me and put Jesus in there,” Joel said.
“But Orthodoxy flips that around. God doesn't want to remove you from yourself and have Jesus there in place of that; He wants to heal you from all that is wrong with you so you can be who He created you to be.”
Now that's funny, and so wrong...Do you know why that's a mystery to Orthodox and Catholics??? Because they don't believe what God tells us in the scriptures so they claim it's a mystery and no one can know...When in fact, we Christians do know...
And no, God isn't looking heal us (our flesh), he's looking to change us...
They and Catholics appear to believe that the Christian is the body, the flesh...But God has revealed the mystery to us...And this may be why none of you knows that...
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
And yes, God DOES want to remove you from yourself...That's what the spiritual circumcision is all about...That why your body can not go to heaven without being changed when it rises as a glorious body to meet the Lord...
You guys can wallow in all this pomp of your religious ceremonies but all that's going to do is make you feel religious...
As they say in the article, their conversion to orthodoxy was a change in Christ where Christ gave them fulfillment and entrance into Himself.
“ They were Southern Baptists from childhood and from what they write, they seem to have a lot of familiarity with Scripture”
We both read the article. I disagree with your assumption.
And frankly too many evangelicals - and this has been true in my experience with southern baptists - are not taught Scripture as they should be.
And like many churches, there are many unsaved.
“ Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”
- Christ
in the evangelical church listening to a pastor on stage giving a lecture, they realized there was nothing on the stage to indicate who they were there to worship.and later they say
"We might as well have been in a TedTalk," Joel said.
During the Divine Liturgy where Eucharist is served, they came to believe they were in this sense of timelessness where they are with the church in Heaven and there have been accounts of seeing angels and Christ come in on the throne.For Stephanie, she said she had “a lot of those puzzle pieces together” as an evangelical. “But I didn't have the full image of who Christ really is.”
"The sense of being surrounded by that great cloud of witnesses, the icons do so much to remind us of much of that, that we are surrounded by these people and that we can ask for their intercession," Stephanie said.
. “revere her”
3.2. “she has been venerated”
3.3. “she is the one praying for us”
.......
None commanded in Scripture
I suppose they believe in higher criticism and evolution now . . . got to prove they still aren't "Protestant" (despite the fact that Protestants invented higher criticism).
“The article doesn’t state more about why they felt this way, so its probably not enough to speculate beyond that they had a different experience from you”
I’ve moved a lot due to the military. I’ve been in a LOT of Baptist churches. The idea that baptists keep a separation between belief, church and how we live is simply RIDICULOUS! I’m not a big believer in “Well, that is THEIR reality”!
When an article makes accusations against a set of people, then those with first hand knowledge of that set have the right to defend themselves based on their knowledge. And when the accusation is that far off the mark, it calls into question the veracity of the people making the accusation.
“was not given in the article as a quote, but rather as a simplification of the differences between the Eastern Orthodox and the Baptists “
Except is is another utterly false accusation. Not even remotely accurate. It is rare to hear a sermon that DOESN’T call on us to live changed lives in the real world. Just moved and need to find a new church, but in 10 years in my previous baptist church, I don’t recall a single sermon that didn’t call on us to live a changed life as we went out into the world around us!
My point is that these accusations are completely disconnected from reality. It goes beyond a caricature and descends into utter dishonesty.
“Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.
A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God’s grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.
Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.
B. Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.
C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God’s purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person’s life.
D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.”
“All Christians are under obligation to seek to make the will of Christ supreme in our own lives and in human society. Means and methods used for the improvement of society and the establishment of righteousness among men can be truly and permanently helpful only when they are rooted in the regeneration of the individual by the saving grace of God in Jesus Christ. In the spirit of Christ, Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including adultery, homosexuality, and pornography. We should work to provide for the orphaned, the needy, the abused, the aged, the helpless, and the sick. We should speak on behalf of the unborn and contend for the sanctity of all human life from conception to natural death. Every Christian should seek to bring industry, government, and society as a whole under the sway of the principles of righteousness, truth, and brotherly love. In order to promote these ends Christians should be ready to work with all men of good will in any good cause, always being careful to act in the spirit of love without compromising their loyalty to Christ and His truth.”
No SBC church is required to accept the “Baptist Faith and Message” as a statement of belief. Many prefer to simply say the Bible is our statement of belief. But to the extent ANY man-made statement represents what Southern Baptists believe, the BF&M 2000 would be it.
The article is like having Joe Biden tell me about what Catholics truly believe......
Perhaps, just a suggestion here, try reading the Bible?
Hopping from Church to Church is a long unfufilling road. Take a Gokd Book with you and uou can be happy anywhere, almost...
21 Jesus answered and said to them, “I performed one work[i] and all of you are amazedIf you read the Bible as just excerpts, no wonder you have your theology wrong.
22 because of it. Moses gave you circumcision—not that it came from Moses but rather from the patriarchs—and you circumcise a man on the sabbath.
23 If a man can receive circumcision on a sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because I made a whole person well on a sabbath?
24 Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.”
They did seem to read the books of the Bible and didn’t do any hopping - they went straight to Orthodoxy
Sorry Cronos, old fellow...
In this case the principle is true.
As confirmed by the correlation of Scripture.
But then perhaps you are unable to see the Spiritual truths if you are not saved.
Are you saved Cronos?
Do you have assurance of your salvation Cronos?
If not, Scripture must be discerned by the Spirit that indwells the saved.
Mary like all other Christians died, was buried and her flesh rotted in the ground...
Jesus never gave due diligence to the thought of his mother...He never even addressed or acknowledged her as Mother, or Mom, or Ma...But you know who he did acknowledge as his mother???
Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
This woman may have been the first Orthodox or Catholic...She's trying to give Jesus' mother some credit or reverence for something she wasn't entitled to...And of course Jesus confirms this here...
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
This applied to Jesus mother as well...
Luk 8:20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Jesus never acknowledged his mother at this or any other event...Don't you find that strange since you claim she is the Queen of Heaven???
But Jesus points to the crowd and says, 'these people are my mother................
Jesus had no interest in any one's flesh...Even his mother's...That crowd out there was obviously not Jesus' birth mother...They were his spiritual mother...And Jesus' spiritual mother and brethren is what drove Jesus to preach...And THAT is a mystery revealed only to born again Christians...
1. you say that people who are baptised into the Southern Baptist "do not have a lot of familiarity with scripture"? Isn't that what SBCs pride themselves on?
2. the article itself does not give any indication that they are NOT familiar (as you state it) with scripture.
3. Saying "are not taught scripture as they should be" is quite different from "they do not seem to have a lot of familiarity with scripture"
4. Saying "are not taught scripture as they should be" is "they should agree with me on my opinion on scripture" - right?
I would say that her opinion reveals that God has not entered her soul...
You, taking it out of context, is just like your statement "they don't show a lot of familiarity with scripture" - based on nothing but your (incorrect guesses).
If you read the Bible as purely excerpts, random quotes, rather than reading the entire chapter, then no wonder you err
Unlike Catholicism, being raised a Baptist does not make one a Baptist...
Yet, as in the article - they were taught and also baptised as adults into the Southern Baptist group and they learnt, believed and prayed in that group.
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