Why the Reformation Still Matters

Ligonier ^ | 10/7/2020 | Michael Reeves

[Cronos]

hmm.... Gamecock is correct that Luther was kicked out perfunctorily.

Would it have been different if Luther had been included in a council, the Lateran council? Yes, definitely.

Cynically speaking though, the Lutheran-Calvinist-Zwingli movement would not have happened if
1. The German Empire was not so weak
2. The German princelings were not so ready for independence from the Hapsburgs.

If not for Luther, there would have been some other movement, perhaps religiously tinted, perhaps not. We - that I mean you Gamecock and me Cronos, like to think this was pure religious motives, but no, it wasn’t. It was politics, damned politics and ego that caused a lot of the problems both through the 1500s and the 1600s - and BOTH sides have a lot to answer for.

Calvin was a French speaking Burgundian. Not much political power really. And zwingli was powerful in his own cantons. But neither had the support of political powers like Luther had.

[Cronos]

The antiChrist was Ellen G White - as she and the Adventists hold that Jesus is just the archangel Michael.

[Mom MD]

Luther’s motivation was purely religious. Support in the broader community may have had political overtones because the Roman Church was at least as much a political organization as a religious one. Fortunately God used Luther whatever the social construct to call His church back to the Gospel of Grace.

[Texas_Guy]

He broke away 6 months after. That wasn’t much of an attempt.

[Mom MD]

When the organization. is trying to kill you it pretty much stops dialogue.

[Texas_Guy]

That’s a lie. The population of Europe was 70-80 million at the time of Luther. It’s only about 700 million now. This would mean that you have to import people just to murder.

Completely ridiculous. Didn’t happen.

[MrChips]

3. The German princelings were not urged on so much by Martin Luther.

[Philsworld]

(from the article I linked to below)

Below is an article of Romanist Persecutions, but more particularly on the numbers slain/persecuted, especially, in the Reformation, but not there only. It appears, written with the declared intent of keeping history clear, and not allowing its intellectual demise amid many, ignorant of facts, lest they become ready to suffer for unawareness, all over again.

http://webwitness.org.au/estimates.html

[Philsworld]

It all points to the Catholic Church. Too bad one of the criteria in the bible isn’t that 4/5 of it’s priests are gay.....that would clinch it for sure. You can’t cover it up with Jesuit lies.

It will rise to be a great power after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire (after 476 AD)
It would uproot three of the ten kingdoms the Roman Empire collapsed into
It will be a geographically small nation (a little horn)
It will rule over many people, nations and tongues (it will be universal)
It will be headquartered in the city of seven hills, Rome
It will be a religio-political entity - a political city-state ruled by a priest-king
Its priest-king will make great and blasphemous claims
It will claim authority over all kings
It will claim its power to change the holy times and laws of God as its mark of authority
It will be an apostate Church that makes the nations drink her cup of apostate doctrine
It will be a “mother” Church, with apostate daughters coming from her
It will be a persecuting power, killing the faithful saints of Jesus Christ as heretics
It will hold power and authority for 1260 years following the fall of pagan Rome
It will suffer a deadly wound that will end 1260 years of dominance and persecution
It will be revived after the deadly wound, and all the world would wonder at its revival

[Philsworld]

Oh, that number is hilarious. I agree that even 1, leave alone the 3000 executed over 350 years (somewhat less than the numbers of Catholics killed by various Anglicans, Calvinists and Lutherans) is too much, but your number of 100s of millions is as hilariously wrong as your belief that Jesus is the archangel michael.

---

HaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahahhahhBawawawawawawawawawwaawa

http://webwitness.org.au/estimates.html

[Philsworld]

So, conclusively, this statement that “Europe” had been without a Bible the people could read for 1000 years is false, very, very false

---

Did Cronos mention that if a person/family was caught with even a part of a bible they would be tortured and murdered?

[Philsworld]

regarding the availability of bibles in Europe: you are correct. Cronos is wrong again.

[Texas_Guy]

Really? That’s your reference? And obvious Protestant propoganda site?

Dear, it’s easy to look up an estimate of how may Europeans were alive at that time. This site is ridiculous. It would mean that Europe would be wiped out to the last man many times over in the 300 years it mentions.

Get real.

[Philsworld]

You should pay more attention to the details. The article is composed from expert historical research. The guy putting together the article was NOT involved in the research (as far as I can tell). The numbers are legit. The Catholic Church was responsible for the torture and murder of hundreds of millions of people. Deny it all you want to. It’s a matter of record.

[Philsworld]

here’s the longer version.

http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/Number-of-Protestants-Killed-By-Popes.html

[Cronos]

Texas_guy —> philsworld as a Seventh Day Adventist, believes that Jesus is the archangel Michael (that’s among other way-out there “beliefs”)

His assertion that “hundreds of millions were murdered” in a population of about 70 million is as insane as his other beliefs, correct, Phils?

[Cronos]

Luther’s initial motivation was partly religious. Note - “partly”. He was also as we read in his diatribes against Zwingli and against Jews, Catholics, peasants, indeed anyone who disagreed with him, a highly egotistical man.

Note — that’s distinct from the philosophies of the Lutheran church, here we’re just talking about the motivations of Luther.

At the beginning, it was ego mixed with religious motives. However later, as he was feted by German princelings, it is evident by his writings that ego got the better of him, so it was no longer even mostly religious.

[Cronos]

back to the Gospel of Grace.

Firstly, let's define what the G of G is - and this differs between many different groups, so let's stick to the Lutheran concept of that "Faith is created in us by the Gospel of grace " --> which quite frankly is the same as the Catholic "The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel"

Now if you say "grace alone" - well, sola gratae is always a Catholic belief - most recently echoed by Pope Benedict XVI as he stated in a General Audience (Nov. 8, 2006): “it is to him and his grace alone that we owe what we are as Christians.”

[Cronos]

4/5 of it’s priests are gay.

That's another number like your "hundreds of millions murdered" and "fact" like your Adventist belief that "Jesus is the archangel michael" and "ellen G White is a prophetess", right?

[Cronos]

And your continuous copy-pasted statements are so hilarious

• It will rise to be a great power after the fall of the pagan Roman Empire (after 476 AD)
  • Rome ceased to be pagan in 378 AD. It wasn't pagan in 476 AD
  • The Roman Empire fell in 1453 Ad, not 476 AD
  • What happened in 476 AD was that Odoacer, the Gothic foederati moved on Ravenna (which was the capital of the western half of the Roman empire) and forced Romulus Augustus to abdicated and Following Romulus Augustus's deposition, according to the historian Malchus, upon hearing of the accession of Zeno to the throne, the Senate in Rome sent an embassy to the Eastern Emperor and bestowed upon him the Western imperial insignia. The message was clear: the West no longer required a separate Emperor, for "one monarch sufficed [to rule] the world". In response, Zeno accepted their gifts and this essentially brought to end any puppet emperors in the West, with Nepos banished and Anthemius dead -- so very clearly, the Roman Empire technically continued with the Roman Senate in Old Rome and the Emperor in New Rome (Constantinople)
• It would uproot three of the ten kingdoms the Roman Empire collapsed into
  • As shown above, the Roman Empire collapsed or rather fell in 1453 and was swallowed whole by the Ottoman empire
  • you then try to make it "oh the Western roman empire" - but the Roman empire was no longer split but reunited under one emperor in 476 AD -- Emperor Zeno sitting in Constantinople.
  • Even in the West, firstly, in 406 the Roman Emperor Honorius told the cities in Briton to look after themselves, acknowledging that they were independent already -- well before your 476 AD date, leave alone 1453
  • Western Europe in 500 AD was technically Roman (except for the island of Britain) and the Gothis, Frankis, Suebian etc. warlords acknowledged the Emperor in Constantinople as their technical overlord, even if de facto they were completely independent
    
  • 
    I hope you can count -- you see just 6 fiefdoms here - it's still too early to call them kingdoms except for the Merovingian franks
  • Then "uproot" - the Church didn't uproot any of these -- the italian goths were uprooted by the Lombards, while the French goths were conquered by the Franks and the hispanic ones by the moors. Oh and the Burgundians were conquered by the Franks
  • So the Roman Empire didn't "collapse" in 476 Ad, there weren't 10 kingdoms and none of them was "uprooted" by the Church
• It will be a geographically small nation
  • Sigh.... firstly, the Vatican isn't a "nation"
  • In addition, the city-state of the Vatican exists only from 1870. Even if one considers it a continuation of the Papal states, those date only from the 700s
  
  
  
• It will be headquartered in the city of seven hills, Rome -- and actually
  • the Vatican is outside the 7 hills of Rome - it's on the Vatican hill :)
  • There are plenty of cities with 7 hills
• It will hold power and authority for 1260 years following the fall of pagan Rome -- So let's look at your 1260 "years" - firstly, it's a misreading of Revelation which uses 1260 days, 3.5 years and 42 months (hint, 3.5 years = 42 months = 1260 days) so it's 1260 days, not years
  
  Then, 476 + 1260 = 1736. So you think the reformation stated in 1736?