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Posted on 08/09/2020 7:46:24 AM PDT by MurphsLaw
We should stop trying to evangelize Protestants, some Catholics say. “Let’s get our own house clean first, before we invite our fellow Christians in,” someone commented on a recent article of mine that presented a Catholic rejoinder to a prominent Baptist theologian. Another reader argued that, rather than trying to persuade Protestants to become Catholic, we should “help each other spread God’s love in this world that seems to be falling to pieces before our eyes.” As a convert from Protestantism, actively engaged in ecumenical dialogue, I’ve heard this kind of thinking quite frequently. And it’s dead wrong.
One common argument in favor of scrapping Catholic evangelism towards Protestants is that the Catholic Church, mired in sex-abuse and corruption scandals, liturgical abuses, heretical movements, and uneven catechesis, is such a mess that it is not, at least for the moment, a place suitable for welcoming other Christians.
There are many problems with this. For starters, when has the Church not been plagued by internal crises? In the fourth century, a majority of bishops were deceived by the Arian heresy. The medieval Church suffered under the weight of simony and a lax priesthood, as well as the Avignon Papacy and the Western Schism, culminating in three men claiming, simultaneously, to be pope. The Counter-Reformation, for all its catechetical, missionary and aesthetic glories, was still marred by corruption and heresies (Jansenism). Catholicism has never been able to escape such trials. That didn’t stop St. Martin of Tours, St. Boniface, St. Francis de Sales, St. Ignatius Loyola, or St. Teresa of Calcutta from their missionary efforts.
The “Catholics clean house” argument also undermines our own theology. Is the Eucharist the “source and summit of the Christian life,” as Lumen Gentium preaches, or not? If it is, how could we in good conscience not direct other Christians to its salvific power? Jesus Himself declared: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53) Was our Lord misrepresenting the Eucharist?
Or what of the fact that most Protestant churches allow contraception, a mortal sin? Or that Protestants have no recourse to the sacraments of penance or last rites? To claim Protestants aren’t in need of these essential parts of the Catholic faith is to implicitly suggest we don’t need them either.
* Moreover, in the generations since the Reformation, Rome has been able to win many Protestants back to the fold who have made incalculable contributions to the Church. St. John Henry Newman’s conversion ushered in a Catholic revival in England, and gave us a robust articulation of the concept of doctrinal development. The conversion of French Lutheran pastor Louis Bouyer influenced the teachings of Vatican II. Biblical scholar Scott Hahn’s conversion in the 1980s revitalized lay study of Holy Scripture.
Another popular argument in favor of limiting evangelization of Protestants involves the culture war. Catholics and theologically conservative Protestants, some claim, share significant common ground on various issues: abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, euthanasia, religious freedom, etc. Secularism, the sexual revolution, and anti-religious progressives represent an existential threat to the survival of both Catholics and Protestants, and thus we must work together, not debate one another. “Let’s hold back any criticism of them,” a person commenting on my article wrote. “Believe me, in the times that we are in, we need to all hang together, or we will definitely hang separately on gallows outside our own churches.”
This line of thought certainly has rhetorical force: we don’t have the luxury of debating with Protestants when the progressivists are planning our imminent demise! Ecumenical debate is a distraction from self-preservation. One problem with this argument is that it reduces our Christian witness to a zero-sum game – we have to focus all our efforts on fighting secular progressivism, or we’ll fail. Yet the Church has many missions in the public square – that Catholics invest great energy in the pro-life movement doesn’t mean we shouldn’t also focus our efforts on other important matters: health-care, education, ensuring religious freedom, or fighting poverty and environmental degradation. All of these, in different ways, are a part of human flourishing. Even if we consider some questions more urgent than others, none of them should be ignored.
Besides, there is a vast difference between mere polemics and charitable, fruitful discussions aimed at resolving disagreements. The former can certainly cause bad blood. The latter, however, can actually foster unity and clarity regarding our purposes. Consider how much more fruitful our fight against the devastation of the sexual revolution would be if we persuaded Protestants that they need to reject things like contraception and the more permissive stance towards divorce that they have allowed to seep into their churches. Consider how non-Christians could learn from charitable ecumenical conversations that don’t devolve into name-calling and vilification.
Finally, abandoning or minimizing the evangelizing of Protestants is to fail to recognize how their theological and philosophical premises have contributed to the very problems we now confront. As Brad Gregory’s book The Unintended Reformation demonstrates, the very nature of Protestantism has contributed to the individualism, secularism, and moral relativism of our age. A crucial component to our Catholic witness, then, is helping Protestants to recognize this, since even when they have the best intentions, their very paradigm undermines their contributions to collaborating with us in the culture war.
I for one am very grateful that Catholics – many of them former Protestants – persuaded me to see the problems inherent to Protestantism, and the indisputable truths of Catholicism. My salvation was at stake. I also found and married a devout Catholic woman, and am raising Catholic children. The Catholic tradition taught me how to pray, worship, and think in an entirely different way. It pains me to think what my life would be like if I hadn’t converted to Catholicism.
Why bother to evangelize devout Protestants? Because they are people like me.
Placemarker
No, they never have explained the fixation with her alleged sinlessness, nor her alleged perpetual virginity as to WHY it’s so critical to their belief system .
What a bunch of unscriptural nonsense.
Reason and logic have nothing to do with the fairy tales the Catholic religion has fabricated around Mary. Rationalization does.
So explain WHY it’s so critical that Mary be considered sinless.
What a bunch of unscriptural nonsense.
Reason and logic have nothing to do with the fairy tales the Catholic religion has fabricated around Mary. Rationalization does.
So explain WHY it’s so critical that Mary be considered sinless.
That is a good question. There is an answer, but not based on scripture as you noted.
Mary is a creature, not to be worshipped unless twisted logic from tradition is applied.
Your post might be a more accurate reason historically as to why they need a ‘sinless’ Mary.
That Queen of Heaven religion has been around since right after the flood of Noah.
We can get into the Scriptures ad nauseam over why idolatry, graven images, bead-using, and bizarre religious rituals conducted in darkness are against God, but their minds are shut. My entire family is enslaved to Rome and it’s rituals.
IMHO, what I learned growing up is that we could always “count on Mary” to listen to our prayers when we did wrong or sinned. God would be very angry with us and want retribution, but she would receive our ‘prayers’ and pass them on to Him so in essence you cut Jesus out of the equation. We could always count on the ‘love of a mother’ to win over the ‘anger of a father’.
Tell me that isn’t diabolical to it’s core?
SIDE NOTE: A few years ago some old catholic aunt of mine died and the priest gave the eulogy at a mass in Mexico, the whole nine yards. My uncle who was present, told me that just after the service started the sound of the most wicked woman howling - like a tormented demon woman screaming was heard throughout the entire building.
Uncle who was ‘worldly’ was spooked and said it didn’t sound human. The priest stopped mid-sentence, and the entire congregation was silent for about 10 seconds. He then continued with...”well...as I was saying”.
The weird things that happen in those circles. I could write a book about them.
It probably wasn’t human. A fallen angel perhaps? I know, when my dad died, I had to come all the way back to the states from Germany. It took me 36 hours to get home. The C-5 I was supposed to ride on broke down, so it took longer. Anyway, when I arrived at the hospital room, I just had a sense there was evil in the room. It was almost palpable. I only felt that way once before, when I had to fly from Rhein Main Air Base, Germany, to Incirlik Air Base, Turkey. It seems I could sense I was in an evil place.
I had heard, that when lost, unsaved people die, sometimes they say they feel like they are on fire, getting a taste of Hell, before their time. I have heard that. I don’t know if it’s true or not. Where I worked, I saw many guys croak, and I never once saw it. I didn’t like it when guys kicked the bucket, when I was in duty, since I had to fingerprint their sorry butts. 😁🤪🤑 I didn’t like that much. 👎
“ Mary is a creature, not to be worshipped unless twisted logic from tradition is applied.
As the highest demigod in the Catholic Pantheon, Mary must be purer, closer to a god, endowed with god-like powers.
The Catholic mindset is that God the Father is scary and condemning.
The rituals of guilt and works leaves them in a state of perpetual uncertainty and a step away from condemnation, or tens of thousands of years of suffering.
The Catholic never knows if he’s done enough to make God happy.
All this leads to isolation from God - and rightly so. It’s all false.
Enter Mary! She’s practically God herself
She’s sinless, created as Christ.
She’s the mom who will protect you from God the Father’s anger
Mary is safe!
She understands.
She hears your prayers when the scary God won’t.
Even better, Mary has “pull” over Christ!
He must do whatever she says! It’s her god-like power.
God won’t listen to you, but Christ must obey Mary.
... all of this unbiblical falsehood rather than to entrust themselves by faith alone to Him and His payment for sin.
And with it, the imputed righteousness of Christ.
And with it, assurance of salvation.
Maybe it wasn’t human, who knows?
You relay an interesting tidbit about unsaved people dying and them feeling like they are on fire before death. I believe that happens.
My WWII vet Grandfather who I don’t believe was saved had similar last words. “I feel hot”, were his last words as he had the look of outright terror in his eyes per my Step-Grandmother.
He was a tough guy, strong man, but not saved. Hell will make the toughest hombres look like weak little girls.
If you ever listen to a guy named Don Stewart, he sometimes travels with Amir Tsarfati - he relayed a similar story to yours. Guys in ‘Nam would be dying in the field, Christians would be at peace as they breathed their last. The unsaved, would gasp for breath fighting tooth and nail to stay alive cursing at everything out of their mouths as they tried to not go into the abyss.
The Catholic mindset is that God the Father is scary and condemning.
The rituals of guilt and works leaves them in a state of perpetual uncertainty and a step away from condemnation, or tens of thousands of years of suffering.
The Catholic never knows if he’s done enough to make God happy.
All this leads to isolation from God - and rightly so. It’s all false.
The relics are similar. They say it reminds them of God. Just like their earthly fathers pocket watch reminds them.
My response is if your earthly father was alive, would you spend time with him or his watch?
God the Father is living. Jesus is alive, the Holy Spirit is alive.
God the Father is “scary and condemning”, but He is also many other things, like just and loving.
That God, the creator of the universe, invites us to call him Father and come into his presence is truly an amazing thing.
Joh 6:65 Then He said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to Me unless the Father gives them to Me.”
Joh 6:66 At this point many of His disciples turned away and deserted Him.
As always, read the above in context, meaning the whole Bible.
Well, as I said, I had heard that can happen, though I worked 11 years in the nut ward, and never once saw it myself.
I watch Amir Tsarfati’s updates all the time, but I don’t know who Don Stewart is. I watched Amir’s latest update today. 👍
The portrayal of God as a petty, vengeful, intolerant dictator who must be appeased IS diabolical to the core.
It’s completely contrary to the nature of the Father as portrayed in the account of the prodigal son.
All so true... sadly.
“ Guys in ‘Nam would be dying in the field, Christians would be at peace as they breathed their last. The unsaved, would gasp for breath fighting tooth and nail to stay alive cursing at everything out of their mouths as they tried to not go into the abyss.”
No man-made brown scapular nor “miraculous medal” can save from hell.
Only entrusting yourself to Christ alone, apart from your own efforts gives salvation.
Jesus never told us that all Truth is in the Bible.
Jesus established His Catholic Church so that we could follow Him and learn what He taught as the reveled truths of God.
Many attempt to follow only parts of the Bible that agree with your man made doctrine that contradicts God’s truth. You reject parts of God’s revealed truth, His Catholic Church and His Sacraments. You attempt to imply meaning without understanding context or using reason and logic in understanding the Bible.
Jesus Christ, the fullness of Revelation, entrust his mission to the Apostles and His Church. They transmitted Christ’s Gospel through their witness, preaching and writing guided by the Holy Spirit for all people.
The teaching office of the Catholic Church , The Magisterium, has the task of authoritatively interpreting the Word of God contained in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
“Hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by oral statement or by letter of ours.” 2Thes 2:15
Never said I didn’t read it. Just said that I didn’t need to. I knew what was coming, and it was exactly as expected. A straight-up denial of the Word of God, as usual.
Also, considering how gleefully you were talking about threatening me with Hell, I have my doubts about your professed hopes.
Extremely diabolical! And exactly what I’ve heard many times over from Catholics and former Catholics.
I’m just thankful that even if my grandparents attend a catholic church, their understanding of Scripture is far more Biblical and Christ-based than these others. They ditched the larger organization when the sex scandals came out, and apparently just stay with the congregation out of inertia.
You can’t threaten me with a good time, man!
But I can put up an unconvincing act as Christ takes my sins away, Willy Wonka style. “No. Stop. Bring them back.” Deadpan.
And it’s a mite hypocritical of you to accuse me of refusing logic and reason when you’re the one dispensing logical fallacies left and right.
No wonder you refuse to respond any more. Pretty hard to escape the truth when it refuses to get sidetracked into blather.
Mary is a sinner like literally everyone else except Christ. She herself says so; God says so; St. Paul says so.
And none of your desperate excuses will change that.
Nice strawman. Go to confession for lying, or admit your ignorance of what sola scriptura actually means.
The Holy Spirit tells us that everything we need for salvation can be found in Scripture. Everything we need for salvation can be found solely in the Gospel of John, actually.
The portrayal of God as a petty, vengeful, intolerant dictator who must be appeased IS diabolical to the core.
***
Catholic doctrine makes Hell out of Heaven.
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