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To: Red6
John 14, HESUS introduces the reality that He is coming to gather all of His to Himself and return to the Father's House. God gives more of the secret in 1 Thess 4:13-17, then even more in 1 Cor 15:51-53. To John Jesus demonstrated what will happen, in the transition from Rev3 to the first sentence in Rev 4. The passage in 2 Thess 2 takes as axiomatic that those who ARE Christs will not be around to see the rise of antichrist. Paul does this in a thoughtful way, by assuring the readers that if the lawless one has not been revealed then the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord cannot have arrived.

The first several translation of the Bible from Greek to English and other languages used the word The Departure' when translating 2Thes 2:3. You can take 2 Thess 2:3 as a dual meaning possibly, the 'apostia' is a departing from the faith and the departure of those who belong to Christ before the lawless one can be revealed because He Who retsrains him is in us and until He is taken out of the way in our departure, the man of sin is restrained from release.

1 John 3:9 tells us it is God abiding in us, in our spirit. Thus it is His presence in our spirit which must be remobed from the earth in order for the restrained of the lawless one to be removed. Think: it is the salt bearers which are restraining the unfettered evil upon the Earth.

21 posted on 05/08/2020 5:30:00 PM PDT by MHGinTN (A dispensation perspective is a powerful tool for discernment)
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To: MHGinTN; Red6
REd6 is correct - One of those American born (dispensationalisms - thank you John Darby) ideas in that sea of 10,000 Christian flavors today where without any true traditions or apostolic succession we just reinvent Christianity.

John 14 talks of Jesus gathering His people in his Kingdom of Heaven that He inaugurated with His Sacrifice

With Jesus's sacrifice He broke the chains and defeated Satan.

[16] And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.
- and this happened at Pentecost and has remained with Jesus' Church, His community, ever since

[26] But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things,
the Holy Ghost is promised to the apostles and their successors, particularly, in order to teach them all truth, and to preserve them from error.
799 posted on 06/15/2020 5:57:50 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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To: MHGinTN; Red6
1 Thess 4:13-17 or rather the whole 1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
And very clearly in verse 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto sanctification.

What does this actually teach?

St. Paul wrote to the Thessalnian Christians because they were worried about those who died before Christ's return. Many in the ancient world believed that a person simply ceased to exist upon death.

These was a rumor in Thessalonica at the time Paul wrote the letter that the dead Christians had lost out on any chance of a physical resurrection. St.Paul assures them that it was not so. In fact, "the dead in Christ will rise first" to meet Christ

Rapturists make the mistake of thinking "meet the Lord in the air" is about Christ not actually touching the earth.

The word St. Paul uses for meeting the Lord "in the air" is aer the Greek word for atmosphere

This SAME word is used in Ephesians 2:2

And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
yet no one would claim that, because of this word, Satan wouldn't influence people on the earth

A consistent rapturist reading of this wod here would mean that only airplane passengers are influenced by Satan's power

NO, when Christ returns to the earth's atmosphere, He has returned to earth

Rapturists trying to point to the "coming in the clouds" -- but this ignores the symbol of divinity in the clouds

The Bible uses three Greek words interchangeably

  1. parousia - coming
  2. epiphaneia appearing
  3. apokalupsis revelation

Rapturists think that there is a different usage for each, but that is false - parousia is not used just for some fake "rapture" and the others for the 2nd coming

Paul doesn't mention this 19th century rapture idea as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final Eschaton

In the apocalypse, that is referred to as the battle with Gog and Magog, Christians will participate in that confrontation because there will be no secret rapture before it. Our comfort rests in Him who will emerge from that confrontation as the Victor.

THAT is the reassurance Paul offers, not the promise of an escape from the great Tribulation.

803 posted on 06/15/2020 6:29:41 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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To: MHGinTN; Red6
And very clearly Jesus DID teach that "as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man" (Matt 24:27). St Paul taught in 1 thessalonians 4:16 that "the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a cry of comman, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God"

BOTH passages speak of the second advent as unmistakably obvious. There is nothing secret about lightning, cries of command, angel calls or trumpets

804 posted on 06/15/2020 6:32:44 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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To: MHGinTN; Red6
1 Cor 15:51-53
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [r]imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this [s]perishable must put on [t]the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
BUT you excerpt instead of looking at the whole chapter, let's look at 15:20-26
The Order of Resurrection 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
The order is clear

First, Christ was raised bodily from the dead. This event stands as a prophecy concerning our own personal future. Christ was the first fruit of those who have salled asleep

Second, Christians will be raised from the dead.

Third the end comes

THAT is the order. This is NOT the Rapturist timeline

Paul lays out a timeline that excludes the possibility of any pre-Trib secret rapture -- there is NO mention of a two-stage coming split into a secret rapture and a later public second eventthere is not even a hint of a secret rapture

There is one resurrection mentioned (not two as per the rapturists) and only one coming event -- immediately after this coming, not seven or 1000 or 1007 years later, the end arrives at which Christ delivered the Kingdom to God

Now we go onwards to 1 Corinthians 51-54

Rapturists like you say this is about a secret rap-game. But why? there is certainly nothing in this text that cannot be understood perfectly well as happening at the traditional second coming. In fact that is a better was to understand the text. Paul tells us that not all Christians will die, but that "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye... we shall all be changed"

We read that this will occur "at the last trumpet" -- the image of trumpets like in Zeph 1:14-16, Zech 9:14, Amos 3:6 etc. is LOUD and no secret rapture

Furthermore, this si not just any trumpet - this is the "last" trumpet The dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed at the end of time

But this last trumpet will not occur 7 or 1007 years before the end. The LAST trumpet sounds LAST

"When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory'" At the time of this trumpet, death will be destroyed -- YET Paul has ALREADY mentioned that "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" (1 Cor. 15:26)

The secret rapture does not fit this passage. When death is destroyed and we are all raised, all tombs will be forever empty

807 posted on 06/15/2020 6:52:14 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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To: MHGinTN; Red6
And then again you and the other rapturists excerpt 2 Thessalonians 2 incorrectly

In 2 Thessalonians, Paul is writing shortly before the Jewish-Roman War begins in 67 AD

[1] And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, [4] Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. [5] Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

[6] And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, [9] Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, [10] And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
The REVOLT - the Jewish revolt in 67 AD. The Man of Sin - Nero. And then Nero's statue in the temple.

Rapturists make the false claim that Christians had been secretly raptured 3.5 years before the Temple worship was corrupted

But this is deceptive and FALSE. Paul wrote Thessalonians to encourage a group of Christians who were afraid they had been "left behind" yet he explicitly does NOT speak of the "blessed hope of the rapture" to comfort the worried Thessalonians. NOWHERE in this passage is there even a message of the rapture. In this passage the rapture is missing in action.

The reason Paul does not mention the rapture as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final eschaton

809 posted on 06/15/2020 7:01:36 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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To: MHGinTN; Red6

And finally 1 John 3:9 “Committeth not sin”: That is, as long as he keepeth in himself this seed of grace, and this divine generation, by which he is born of God. But then he may fall from this happy state, by the abuse of his free will, as appears from Rom. 11. 20-22; Cor. 9. 27; and 10. 12; Phil. 2. 12; Apoc. 3. 11.


810 posted on 06/15/2020 7:02:46 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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