Thoughts on The Timing Of The Rapture

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Hebrews 11:4-6)

The famous “Faith Chapter” in the book of Hebrews, begins with two Saints, Abel and Enoch as examples of faith which we are to imitate. Faith is the point, for faith is the only way to please God.

I once asked the LORD, ‘Why Faith? Why is that what you require?” I believe I received several answers in the form of scripture and impressions, from the LORD. God requires faith, because we simply cannot save ourselves. Only God can save our souls, no one can redeem themselves, therefore Faith is required, because faith glorifies God and not man.

Another reason for the requirement of faith that came to me, is that our problems began when we quit believing in the goodness of God. Adam and Eve were willing to entertain a false and degraded notion of God, that He was holding something back that would be good for the first couple. The Serpent bore false witness about the LORD, and they believed it.

The way back? It has to be faith. We must repent and believe again in the goodness of God.

The “hall of faith” begins with Abel and Enoch. One Saint who was murdered for his faith, and for bearing witness to God in a hostile world. There would be literally millions upon millions who would follow in his footsteps, being willing to let go of their life rather than deny the truth of God.

The other Saint, Enoch, was a man who lived in a kind of “end times scenario” living in the time leading up to the flood. It was a day of Apostasy, but Enoch walked with God, until God took Him home. He didn’t die , He was raptured. God took him home, to be with himself.

I believe that we also live in an end-time. I have no doubt that Jesus is coming, and in our lifetime. What makes us unique is the re-emergence of the nation of Israel, in 1948, in fulfillment of the prophecies about the last of the last days. All of the prophets pre-supposed that there would be a national Israel, and a Jewish occupied city of Jerusalem, as well as a controversy over Judea, (The West bank) which would engulf the whole world.

The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. (Zechariah 12:1-3)

Which brings us back to our two Saints at the beginning of Hebrews 11. One died, He was martyred for his witness to God. The other one did not die. He was Raptured. Both of these Saints lived by Faith and Pleased God.

No doubt. many of us will end up dying. Perhaps some of us will be given an opportunity to be martyred. We are Saints and love God, but all things being equal, unless the LORD returns, we will die, one way or another.

(Of course, Christians don’t really die, they “go to sleep”) but the real point is that Faith is the only way to please God.

But according to the scriptures, there is a unique end-times event, coming, as I hope I have pointed out in this series, called the Rapture, or “Our gathering together unto Him”, “the Episynagogue” and Jesus coming to “take us where (He)…is, unto himself”. The LORD is coming to snatch us off the earth with a swift and irresistable power”.

To participate in such an event is a rare honor among the countless Millions of Saints who believed in Jesus before us.

But whether we die, or are martyred, o whether we are raptured, the real point is that we must live our lives by Faith,which is the only way to please God.

This is why I do not enter into the countless discussions as to the timing of the Rapture. “Will The Rapture be pre- ,mid , or post Tribulation”?

* It involves the “dead in Christ” as well as “We who are alive, until the coming of the LORD”.

As far as I know, all else can only be speculation. God doesn’t want us to know the exact timing otherwise it would be clearer. I am glad there is a Rapture, and my prayer has always been that I be involved in it, while alive. But I cannot say with certainty what the timing of it is, so I don’t.

What counts is Faith in Jesus. Not dead works, but a living, vital, infectious faith. Let us have a faith which still moves us to confess and forsake our sins, to Love and seek God. To forgive and love our brothers, and a faith which moves us to share with others what God has shown to us. Is your faith alive? Do you have oil in your lamp? Are you current with God?

We Overcome the World by our faith. “This is the victory that overcometh the World…our faith”. We overcome the Spirit of antiChrist also, by our faith. So also we overcome the sins that so easily beset us, and the Coldness and soul deadening effect of this world, by our Faith.

Of course we want out of here, we can increasingly see that there is nothing in this World for we who believe, but rejection and opposition.I want Jesus to come, and Long for the Rapture. I am either going up in it, or I am gong to die, but one way or another we are leaving.

Either way, the point is Faith. So I will leave the timing of the Rapture to God, and just strive to be counted worthy to attain it, whether ded or alive.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:35)

We are destined to receive a new body and soul fit for eternal living!

Yes we will bro. That is what we long for, to be clothed with the new body., and to take up our new habitation. Chuck M was saying the Greek word for this new body, and the “new habitation,” is the same word that is used in Jude 6: “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness (Tartarus) unto the judgment of the great day.” I think the number of fallen angels, confined in this “dark abode of woe,” are just a tiny, tiny percentage of the other fallen angels, who are still allowed to roam the earth.

My reasons for misunderstanding are usually due to differences in references and definitions.

To my way of thinking, we are a soul that has a body. When the body dies, the soul remains.

I never tried to separate “soul” and “spirit” in the same way.

To my way of thinking, the body is the physical and the soul is something else. When we look at each other and our selves with our physical eyes we see bodies, but with His Eyes He “sees” souls.

But the spirit? I’m not sure. I don’t know.

I’m still working on what the soul might be, what the mind and consciousness might be, what intuition might be and what love (not the emotion) might be.

Fwiw, from my life experience I know I can be kicked out of and disowned by the family, so an ultra-strict, but loving Father and a merit-based Heavenly hierarchy works for me.

I was apparently a somewhat rebellious and occasionally disobedient child.

With a rather poorly timed sin against dad, I went from being “adopted by” to “booted from” the family at something just short of light speed, so I do have some experience with this sort of thing.

My misunderstandings can get me into trouble, especially if I put them into action!

Thanks for giving me a new puzzle, “what is the spirit?”, to think about.

It helps me understand the why for some of the arguments here a little bit better.

Thanks, but I confess that I don’t totally see it this way.

Perhaps I will at some point, but, for now, at least I can better see the source of argument.

Body vs Soul ... (vs Spirit)

My focus has been on the condition of the soul, with the spirit as being an attribute of both body and soul.

I didn’t separate the spirit from the soul as standing alone, by itself, to be saved or not, instead of the soul being saved, but now I can see why you think as you do.

I think of Jesus saving “souls”, judging “souls”, redeeming “souls”, etc.

And apparently this is the source of my misunderstanding, because I should think “spirit” being saved, judged, redeemed, etc. instead of “soul”.

To your thinking, the body and “soul” die together, but the “spirit” lives on.

To my way of thinking, the body dies and the “soul” lives on to ? ... I’m not sure what comes next, but I think the “soul” sleeps awaiting judgement.

I had not considered the “spirit” in death/post-death at all, only the “soul”.

But for you, the “spirit” is everything, whereas the “soul” is not even a thought.

If this is accurate, it’s no wonder we argue!

We’re the 11 Apostles acting in the flesh when they chose Matthias to fill Judas’ place as the 12th apostle? Did they have any business choosing the replacement apostle in the first place? Did they just arbitrarily choose 2 candidates and THEN ask God which of these 2 He wanted to tell the vacant position? Was PAUL, NOT MATTHIAS actually God’s real choice to take Judas’ place?

1.The 11 had been given the authority to act OFFICIALLY in Christ’s absence (Matt. 16:19, 18:8,9)

2. Psalms states that another should be appointed to Judas’ place (Psa. 109:8, Acts 1:20.

3. The 12th apostle HAD to be chosen BEFORE the kingdom could be offered at PENTECOST. (Matt. 19:28). Read Acts 2:14.

4. Their action was NOT taken without praying to God TO SHOW THEM which of the two HE HAD CHOSEN. God chose Matthias. In order to be a replacement the candidate MUST have followed Christ all through His earthly ministry. (Acts 1:21,22 with Matt.19:28). There could not have been MANY. that filled that condition.

5. Paul was NOT even SAVED at that time. He would not have been eligible. He did not even see Christ until AFTER His ascension. At the period covered before Acts 9, Paul was busy persecuting the Church of God and laying waste to it. (Gal. 1:13.

6. The final proof that the 11 acted IN THE WILL OF GOD in this matter is found in Acts 1:26, where it is clearly stated that Matthias “was numbered with the 11
apostles. They were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4). Matthias would NOT have been filled with the Holy Spirit if he had not been chosen by God to be Judas’ replacement. Likewise the 11 would not have been filled with the Holy Spirit if they had acted out of the will of God in choosing Matthias. A person out of the will of God is NEVER filled with the Holy Spirit.

Paul’s APOSTLESHIP was separate and distinct from the 12. Paul cannot be considered as one with the 12. Just as 11 Apostles would have been too FEW for God’s Kingdom plans, 13 would have been too many. There will be twelve thrones (besides tvChrist’s) in the kingdom, NOT thirteen. Paul will NOT be sitting on one of twelve thrones, judging the TWELVE tribes of Israel.

So...where does that leave Paul?

When I got to the following I stopped reading. This is just not truth and it is not in The Bible. perhaps the author does not believe in the Rapture but that IS in the Bible, the event.

... we as believers, when we die, we don't go to sleep, the moment a person takes their last breath and they die, ... the angels of God come to take you home, and they take you to be with the Lord. This body remains here, goes back into the earth, but the spirit, the spirit that's in us, immediately is in the presence of God in heaven, and what does God do? Immediately He gives you a new body - a new body - all things become new. - Raul Ries.

That statement is a deception. Our spirit is with the Lord if we die IN CHRIST, but it is at the departure of The Body of Christ that we get a new body and new behavior mechanism:

The action at the rapture of The Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, ALL born agains since Pentecost ... 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Now the event described by Paul ... 1 Thessalonians 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

On the contrary, there is no problem with that.

*Faith* without works is mere intellectual assent. It does not save anyone as a lot of people acknowledge God. The pharisees did and they certainly were not saved.

Adding faith to intellectual assent also does not result in the new birth. Again the pharisees attest to that.

The new birth WILL result in good works. It has to. It’s just the natural out working of the inner working of the Holy Spirit in one. So if you don’t see that change in your life, then it’s well within reason to question the person’s salvation.

So may I ask you where you get your interpretations that you seem to put your faith in.
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Certainly you may ask! I get my interpretations presumably from the same place you do, i.e., from prayerful reading the Scriptures, and from reading and listening to commentaries on the Scriptures dating from the present back to apostolic times. The commentaries to which I refer are those spoken and written by secularists and by people of all professed faith communities. YOUR TURN!

The new birth WILL result in good works.
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Surprisingly, I’m pretty much in agreement with your post except for the preceding point, which I believe to be in error for the following reason: If it were true that following the new birth good works are assured, it would have been unnecessary for James to warn Christians that faith without works is dead. And I see nothing in his Epistle that indicates he was admonishing Christians who were NOT born again, which in any case is a contradiction that would be considered an oxymoron!

The way I see it the "soul" is the lifeforce within the being. Even animals have what can be called a lifeforce - though some are significantly more sentient than others (e.g., humans vs. worms). In humans there is a third part (we're a "triune" being in God's image after all), called the "spirit". Those who are unsaved have a dead spirit nature (the flesh) that is a slave to sin but when we come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, our spirit comes alive (we are born again) and the Holy Spirit indwells us:

But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! (Ephesians 2:4,5)

And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! (Colossians 2:12-14)

While we are still physically alive, we will have contention between the old sin nature and the new spirit nature. It is what Paul taught in Romans chapter 7 and he was already saved for 25 years when he wrote that. He explains:

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom. 7:14-25)

No, it’s not unnecessary.

He’s not warning them that faith without works is dead.

He’s explaining how to know if someone’s faith is genuine.

The new birth HAS to result in good works because the new birth involves the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer and when that happens, things WILL change.

If they don’t then there’s good cause to consider if the person is truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

He’s not warning them that faith without works is dead.
He’s explaining how to know if someone’s faith is genuine.
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That strikes me as a distinction without a difference, but in any case it doesn’t change the fact that without works faith is dead, and those who sinfully reject the works to which they are called are well advised to heed the following:

Hebrews 10:26-31
New International Version

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 For it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB) “And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”

So, can one even do good without faith? If without faith it is impossible to please God, isn’t the contrary also true, i.e. With faith, it is possible to please God?

But even our good works are from God:

Ephesians 2:10 (NASB) “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

The believers’ good works were prepared by God for us before our conversion so that we would do them.

Even James says “Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.” (James 1:17 (NASB))

Aside from your usual insulting methodology and arrogant disdain, you are lumping scriptures aimed at Jews under the covenant God made with Israel, and the new covenant God as Jesus made with ALL WHO WILL BELIVEW in Whom God has sent for our deliverance. Any further posts in response to you are useless since you are more knowledgeable that Paul according to your posts assumptions.It must have taken you years to refine this insulting snipe mode. I for one am not amused, so I'll just warn you to not take the mark soon to be commanded to you.

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