The biggest threat to Christians is the teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture

Whatchu talking about Willis? This is about the Pre-trib rap

Do you believe in this 19th century non-biblical belief or not?

There is so much that points to the rapture it is not worth arguing. Don't believe it if you do not want to. But the lampstands are in heaven before the scroll is opened.

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead [These are not of the Church nor are they of the billions taken to Heaven during the Tribulation], great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

We can disagree on whether being thrown into the everlasting torment place erases the spirits of those not found in the Book of Life, but the everlastingness is not in question.

I didn’t know you knew him personally! That is so cool!

Roman Catholicism

The author of the OP is JD Rucker. If you have evidence that he's a Catholic, present it, because I can't find any.

I'm thinking he's either Church of Christ or Baptist, but I can't confirm that, either.

I agree. I think the invention of the rapture stems from the belief of most protestants that suffering (even when united to the suffering of Christ), is pointless and unnecessary.

Our generation is unaccustomed to suffering, we are like fattened cattle ready for the slaughter. The effeminate cannot stand to suffer (*this is the true meaning of the word effeminate), and the effeminate shall not enter Heaven. We all need to toughen up, for the torturers of the anti-christ will know our deepest fears.

Above all, we need to repent and seek God’s forgiveness as founded before Christ’s Ascension. Then, “penance, penance, penance!”.

Christ will come in Glory at the end of the world, and then “we will be caught up in the air”.

Satan lied to Eve in the Garden, too. So your lying is transparent.

So is that a yes or a no on your belief in the 19th century non-biblical, non-Christian pre-Trib Rap?

Rev chapter 12 describes the birth of Christ and the war in heaven.

Rev 12 - or rather Rev 11 ends with John seeing the ark of the covenant. This is a clear indication of a created being bearing God - this is both a vision of Mary, the ark bearing God - Jesus Christ and also ZION birthing christianity.

12:1 "And a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery."

This links to Is 7:14 "There the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel" This also links to Is 26:17 and Is 66.7

John is referring both to Zion, the daughter of God and Mary who personifies Isaiah's Daughter Zion. God's Chosen people, Israel, gives birth to the Messiah of the world. Salvation comes from the Jews.

The woman wears a crown, like the 24 elders referred to earlier - indicating that they and she have been faithful and received "the crown of life" as alluded in Revelations 2:10

12:3 "And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. his tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth;"

The 10 horns is a symbol of political power and the 7 crowns is about complete (7 signifies complete) power held by the chief fallen angel.

Remember that Red signifies Ruddy Edom. Herod was an Edomite (Edom = "red") who sought to destroy the infant Christ

Rev 12:5-6 She brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days

1260 days = 42 months = 3.5 years = the duration of the Jewish-Roman war

Rev 12:7-9 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against hte dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world - he was thrown down to the earth , and his angels were thrown down with him.

Wis 2:24 But by the envy[a] of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are allied with him experience it.

rev12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuse them day and night before our God."

Just as in rev 11:2, the destruction of the temple is spoken of in the same terms as being "cast out"

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death

REjoise then, o heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short

This is key - the Devil had 42 months, 3.5 years during the destruction of the 2nd temple to run amok

The Great Tribulation in Rev says

17:13-14 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, adn whence have they come?" I said to him "Sir, you know." And he said to me "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The washing of the robes means those who have been delivered

The Great Tribulation talks of how NERO persecuted God's people - this sustained and vicious tribulation of the Church started when Nero, the little horn, needed a scapegoat for the great fire of Rome. This state-sponsored persecution continued for about three years, until Nero diverted attention tot he Jewish-Roman war

Jesus clearly told the Sanhedrin that they would see evidence of the coming of the Son of man as predicted in Daniel 7:13 - for you to say this will happen after 2019 is FALSE. Jesus on the eve of His crucifixion made a promise to the Sanhedrin that THEY would see evidence of the coming of the Son of Man - he wasn't wrong by 2000 years!!!

Daniel clearly talks of the destruction of the Temple as the time of the Great Tribulation.Hebrews 9:24-25 christ has entered into Heaven itself, not to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer Himself repeatedly, as the High priest enters the Holy place yearly with blood not his own; for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, He has appeared once and for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself

Daniel states that the purpose of the time is to bestow 6 blessings. These blessings were bestowed as a result of the first Advent The seventy weeks are decreed 'to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy."

The day when Christ was born, eternal righteousness was revealed, and the Saint of saints was anointed, namely Christ, and the vision and prophecy were sealed and those sins were remitted... It was because the prophecy was fulfilled by His advent that the vision was confirmed by a seal; and it was called a prophecy becuase Christ himself is the seal of all the prophets

I trust in Christ and Christ alone. That is THE important issue.

I'm ready IF there is a rapture or if there isn't.

The question is...are you trusting in Christ and Christ alone or do you also wear the Brown Scapular?

“Paul’s view”??? You mean the book of 1 Thes is “Paul’s “view””?

I thought 1 Thes was the inspired Word (Logos) of God Almighty.

Having met ME Christians in wartime, they indeed thought they were going through the tribulation. And, were very happy to see US forces rescuing them from the grip of the devil himself... Yeah, Saddam H. It was not the end ( for all of the folks there).

Christians throughout history endured tribulation, death, torture on a wide scale during regional and almost world wide proportions, but that was not the end. It WAS their tribulation. However, THE tribulation is a specific, described series of events over a period of time wherein Gods Wrath is poured out over all those who refused to accept Christs propitionary sacrifice of HIS life for theirs, the bearing of their unrighteousness in exchange for HIS righteousness and therefore acceptance by God the Father.

That ends with the Second coming of Christ physically on the Mount of Olives to put all things right on the earth until the end. At which time the Judgment occurs ( of all flesh, those unsaved and alive to damnation for failing to take Christ, and those found written in the book of LIFE to eternal acceptance and bliss, and then the remanufacture of the earth and the new Jerusalem marching on into eternity.

The Catching away of the Saints ( Harpazdo/Rapture etc) is clearly written . Not sure how one can reject that scripture without rejecting it all.

Comparing suffering of saints through the age with the end of days is not logical nor described in scripture.

My Heavenly Father redeemed me ( bought me back) and while I am unworthy but for Christs reflection, I know my Redeemer lives and He will not punish me with the ungodly, however, the world will hate me in the meantime.

Worldly tribulation at the hands of ungodly men sure, but unfair punishment ( mass punishment if you will) of believers ( Righteous in Gods eyes because of Christ) and unbeliever alike is seemingly uncharacteristic of God the Father.

Let scripture interpret scripture. First, literal, then contextual and finally in toto....

In the end, the only real question needing an answer is “Have you personally accepted Christ as your personal savior? His life for yours? All else is just details....which will work out for the good of the Believer, for the worst for the unbeliever.

I agree. I think the invention of the rapture stems from the belief of most that suffering (even when united to the suffering of Christ), is pointless and unnecessary.

Our generation is unaccustomed to suffering, we are like fattened cattle ready for the slaughter. The effeminate cannot stand to suffer (*this is the true meaning of the word effeminate), and the effeminate shall not enter Heaven. We all need to toughen up, for the torturers of the anti-christ will know our deepest fears.

Above all, we need to repent and seek God’s forgiveness as founded before Christ’s Ascension. Then, “penance, penance, penance!”.

Exactly

This is exclusively in North America where this belief set in in the 19th century and led to errors like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Too much comfort

Love you man. We’ll find out soon enough. I’ll explain it all on the way up

the thing is, campion, that the pre-Trib rap belief is a new 19th century belief rejected by most Protestants.

So it’s new-fangled and rejected just as other Jehovah’s Witness false teachings are rejected

Your denomination has Mary defeating Satan as Rev 12 is supposed to be about her...per Rome, but not the NT.

ah, again, resorting to fluff when losing the argument.

The bible as pointed out above, rejects the pre-Trib rap, which is why it was only invented in the 19th cnetury by the same crew that led to Mormons, jehovah’s witnesses, adventists etc.

Thank you for your reply, FRiend.

still not going to read the Bible and see that the pre-Trib rap is non-biblical?