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What is the “Apocrypha”?
Fr. John Whiteford's Commentary and Reflections ^ | 07-19-2019 | Fr. John Whiteford

Posted on 10/06/2019 9:00:00 AM PDT by NRx


Question: "What do the terms "apocrypha" and "deuterocanonical" mean, and how does the Orthodox Church view them?"

The question of the Biblical canon is a somewhat complicated one, because it developed over a very long period of time, and there certainly have been some historical disagreements on the matter. The word "canon" comes the Greek word κανών, which means a measuring rod, or a rule. And so when we speak of the canon of Scripture, we are speaking of the lists of books that affirmed to be Scripture.

Christians have a precisely defined New Testament Canon, about which there is no dispute... at least not since the 4th century, and this is due in part because of a heretic by the name of Marcion who produced a very truncated New Testament canon, which included only the Gospel of Luke and some of the Epistles of St. Paul, which he edited to fit his heretical views. And then there were also heretical books that claimed to be written by Apostles, but which were not which the Church wanted to clearly reject. There was never any dispute about most of the books of the New Testament, but there were a few books that were not immediately accepted throughout the Church, but were eventually.

When it comes to the Old Testament canon, there is a precisely defined core canon, and fairly well defined next layer, and then less clearly defined edges. So why the precision in the case of the new, but not the Old? This is partly because there was not nearly as much controversy on the question, which is not to say that there were no disagreements, but the level of concern over these disagreements did not rise to nearly the same level. It was not until the time of the Protestant Reformation that this question did become a bigger issue, because for Protestants who generally took a low view of Tradition, whether or not a book was really part of Scripture became almost an all or nothing question. Either the book was Scripture, in which case it had all authority; or it was not scripture, in which case it had essentially no authority, though it might be a matter of some historical interest.

When we speak of the Canonical books of the Old Testament, or the "Protocanonical" books as Roman Catholics put it, we have general agreement. These books are the same as the books recognized by the Jews as Scripture. The only difference you find is that in some canonical lists the books of Baruch is sometimes listed as part of these books, and Esther is not.

But what are the names used for the "extra" books that are not part of the undisputed Old Testament Canon? Many early Fathers simply made no distinction, and referred to them as Scripture. Then you have some sources that refer to these books as "non-canonical"... but we will need to consider further what they really mean by that. St. Athanasius the Great referred to these books as "readable" books -- books not included in the Jewish canon, but which could be read in Church in the services. Then you have the term "Deuterocanonical," which is, I think, a useful term, but it is a Roman Catholic term that came into use to counter the Protestant rejection of these books. The implication of this name is that these books comprise a second Old Testament Canon, or you could say a list of canonical books which were known not to have been accepted by the Jews, but which were accepted by Christians. Then you have Protestants who labeled these books as "Apocrypha." To these terms we could add the term "Pseudepigrapha", which is a label applied to many texts that are almost universally rejected, but which claim the names of Old Testament saints as their authors.

There is a very interesting comment by Origen in his letter to Africanus (ANF v. IV, pp 386ff.), in which he responds to Africanus, who had asked him why he quoted from the portion of the book of Daniel which contains the story of Susanna, which is not found in the Hebrew text. Origen responds that he was not unaware of this fact (after all, he produced a six column text of the Old Testament,  the Hexapla, which was the first critical edition of the Old Testament, and which compared the Hebrew text with various Greek editions). Origen defended the authenticity of this portion of Daniel. His response is detailed, but let me highlight a few points:
"And, forsooth, when we notice such things, we are forthwith to reject as spurious the copies in use in our Churches, and enjoin the brotherhood to put away the sacred books current among them, and to coax the Jews, and persuade them to give us copies which shall be untampered with, and free from forgery!  Are we to suppose that that Providence which in the sacred Scriptures has ministered to the edification of all the Churches of Christ, had no thought for those bought with a price, for whom Christ died; whom, although His Son, God who is love spared not, but gave Him up for us all, that with Him He might freely give us all things?
In all these cases consider whether it would not be well to remember the words, “Thou shalt not remove the ancient landmarks which thy fathers have set.” Nor do I say this because I shun the labour of investigating the Jewish Scriptures, and comparing them with ours, and noticing their various readings.  This, if it be not arrogant to say it, I have already to a great extent done to the best of my ability, labouring hard to get at the meaning in all the editions and various readings; while I paid particular attention to the interpretation of the Seventy, lest I might to be found to accredit any forgery to the Churches which are under heaven, and give an occasion to those who seek such a starting-point for gratifying their desire to slander the common brethren, and to bring some accusation against those who shine forth in our community. And I make it my endeavour not to be ignorant of their various readings, lest in my controversies with the Jews I should quote to them what is not found in their copies, and that I may make some use of what is found there, even although it should not be in our Scriptures. For if we are so prepared for them in our discussions, they will not, as is their manner, scornfully laugh at Gentile believers for their ignorance of the true reading as they have them.  So far as to the History of Susanna not being found in the Hebrew."
Two important points are made here: Christians should use the texts preserved by the Church, and not feel like we have to go cap in hand to the Jews to find out what the Bible is. However, it is important for us to know what texts they accept and do not, so that when speaking to them, we not appear to be ignorant, and thus harm our witness to them.

Skipping further on in the text we find Origen saying that the reason for many of the omissions in the Hebrew texts are because the Scribes and Pharisees omitted things that made them look bad:
"But probably to this you will say, Why then is the “History” not in their Daniel, if, as you say, their wise men hand down by tradition such stories?  The answer is, that they hid from the knowledge of the people as many of the passages which contained any scandal against the elders, rulers, and judges, as they could, some of which have been preserved in uncanonical writings (Apocrypha).  As an example, take the story told about Isaiah; and guaranteed by the Epistle to the Hebrews, which is found in none of their public books."
Here Origen gives an interesting meaning to the term "Apocrypha" (hidden books). His argument is that the story of Susanna was omitted in the Hebrew text because it made the Jewish elders look bad. If you look at the Wisdom of Solomon, you could see how they might also have had incentive to have hidden this book too.
"Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education. He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord. He was made to reprove our thoughts. He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, his ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father. Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him. For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience. Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected" (Wisdom 2:12-20).
This is a very clear prophecy of the attitude which the Jewish leaders would take toward Christ. This text was used very effectively by Christians in the Early Church, and the Jews had good reason to want to dismiss it.

I think Origen puts his finger on the reason why many Fathers made a distinction between the "canonical" books of the Old Testament which the Jews accepted, and the books which they did not accept. Even to this day, you still find these books referred to as "non-canonical" by contemporary Orthodox writers, who mean by that only that they are not in the Jewish canon.

For example, Fr. Seraphim Slobodskoy, in The Law of God, wrote:
"Besides the canonical books, a part of the Old Testament is composed of non-canonical books, sometimes called Apocrypha among non-Orthodox. These are books which the Jews lost and which are not in the contemporary Hebrew text of the Old Testament.  They are found in the Greek translations of the Old Testament, made by the 70 translators of the Septuagint three centuries before the birth of Christ (271 B.C.). These book have been included in the Bible from ancient times and are considered by the Church to be sacred Scripture. The translation of the Septuagint is accorded special respect in the Orthodox Church. The Slavonic translation of the Bible was made from it. 
To the non-canonical books of the Old Testament belong:
1. Tobit
2. Judith
3. The Wisdom of Solomon
4. Ecclesiasticus,  or the Wisdom of Sirach
5. Baruch
6. Three books of Maccabees
7. The Second and Third book of Esdras
8. The additions to the (Book of Esther,) II Chronicles (The Prayer of Manasseh) and Daniel (The Song of the Youths, Susanna and Bel and the Dragon)” (Archpriest Seraphim Slobodskoy, The Law Of God: For Study at Home and School (Jordanville, NY: Holy Trinity Monastery, 1996), p. 423).      
While generally, not much is made of a distinction between the "canonical" and "deuterocanonical" books in the Orthodox, some writers continue to argue that there is a distinction, such as Fr. Michael Pomazansky:
"The Church recognizes 38 books of the Old Testament. After the example of the Old Testament Church, several of these books are joined to form a single book, bringing the number to twenty-two books, according to the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet. These books, which were entered at some time into the Hebrew canon, are called "canonical." To them are joined a group of "non-canonical" books-that is, those which were not included in the Hebrew canon because they were written after the closing of the canon of the sacred Old Testament books. The Church accepts these latter books also as useful and instructive and in antiquity assigned them for instructive reading not only in homes but also in churches, which is why they have been called "ecclesiastical." The Church includes these books in a single volume of the Bible together with the canonical books. As a source of the teaching of the faith, the Church puts them in a secondary place and looks on them as an appendix to the canonical books. Certain of them are so close in merit to the Divinely-inspired books that, for example, in the 85th Apostolic Canon the three books of Maccabees and the book of Joshua the son of Sirach are numbered together with the canonical books, and, concerning all of them together it is said that they are "venerable and holy." However, this means only that they were respected in the ancient Church; but a distinction between the canonical and non-canonical books of the Old Testament has always been maintained in the Church (Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, trans. Fr. Serpahim (Rose), (Platina, CA: St. Herman Press, 1984), p. 26f).
Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev), on the other hand, says:
     "In contemporary editions of the Bible the books of the Old Testament are subdivided into those books that are canonical and those not canonical. Those books that fall under the canonical category are understood to be those of the Hebrew canon. This canon (i.e. the list of books recognized as holy in the Jewish tradition) was formed over centuries and was finally solidified in the year 90 CE by the Sanhedrin in the Galilean city of Jamnia. The canonical texts differ from the non-canonical in their antiquity; the former were written in the period between the fifteenth and fifth centuries BCE, while the latter were written between the fourth and first centuries BCE. As for the number of non-canonical books concerned there are the books of Tobit, Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, 2 and 3 Esdras, the letter of Jeremiah, Baruch and 3 Maccabees, and also the Prayer of Manasseh at the end of 2 Chronicles, as well as various parts of the book of Esther, Psalm 151, and three fragments from the book of the Prophet Daniel (3.24-90, 13, 14).
     The Protestant Bible does not include the non-canonical books of the Old Testament, and in this way it differs from the Orthodox just as from the Catholic Bible. The Catholic Bible includes the non-canonical books under the category of "deuterocanonical" (this term was coined by the Council of Trent in 1546). For the Orthodox Christian, the difference between the canonical and non-canonical books of the Old Testament is of a conventional character inasmuch as the question is not about an Orthodox or Christian canon, but is about the Jewish canon, completed independently from Christianity. In the Orthodox Church, the basic criterion for the specific canonicity of this or that book in the Old Testament is its use in the divine services. In this regard one cannot consider the Wisdom of Solomon and those fragments of the book of Daniel which are absent from the Hebrew canon, but which hold an important place in Orthodox services, to be non-canonical. Sometimes the non-canonical books, from the viewpoint of the Hebrew canon and the "deutercanonical" Catholic canon, in Orthodox usage are called by the Greek term anaginoskomena, αναγινώσκωμένα (i.e. acknowledged, recommended reading).
     While all of the canonical books of the Old Testament are written in Hebrew, the basis of the Old Testament text in the Orthodox tradition is the Septuagint, a Greek translation by the "seventy interpreters" made in the third to second centuries BCE for the Alexandrian Hebrews and the Jewish diaspora. The authority of the Septuagint is based on three factors. First of all, though the Greek text is not the original language of the Old Testament books, the Septuagint does reflect the state of the original text as it would have been found in the third to second centuries BCE, while the current Hebrew text of the Bible, which is called the "Masoretic," was edited up until the eighth century CE. Second, some of the citations taken from the Old Testament and found in the New mainly use the Septuagint text. Third, the Septuagint was used by both the Greek Fathers of the Church, and Orthodox liturgical services (in other words, this text became part of the Orthodox church Tradition). Taking into account the three factors enumerated above, St. Philaret of Moscow considers it possible to maintain that "in the Orthodox teaching of Holy Scripture it is necessary to attribute a dogmatic merit to the Translation of the Seventy, in some cases placing it on equal level with the original and even elevating it above the Hebrew text, as is generally accepted in the most recent editions" (Orthodox Christianity, Volume II: Doctrine and Teaching of the Orthodox Church, (New York: St. Vladimir Seminary Press, 2012) p. 33f).
To complicate matters further, if you look at the Russian Synodal Bible and compare with the standard Orthodox edition of the Bible in Greek, there are some books that included in one that are not in the other (the Greek Bible included 4th Maccabees, and the Russian Bible includes 2nd Esdras (also called 4th Esdras in some editions), and so what should we make of all of this?

If you think of the Tradition as a target, with concentric circles, you could put the Gospels in the middle, the writings of the apostles in the in the next ring, maybe the Law of Moses, in the next, the prophets in the next, the writings in the next, the deutrocanonical books in the next, the wrings of those who knew the Apostle in the next, the Ecumenical Canons in the next, etc. The only debate would be which ring to put them on... and ultimately, is that the most important question? For a Protestant, this is a huge question. For the Orthodox, it is not so much.

For most of the books in the Orthodox Bible, there is no question that they are Scripture in the full sense. The Deuterocanonical books are certainly Scripture as well, though some Fathers and some writers would argue that they have secondary authority. Then there are some books that are included more along the lines of being appendices to the Scriptures (4th Maccabees and 2nd Esdras). They all are part of the larger Tradition, and they all have to be understood within the context of that larger Tradition -- and that is the key thing to keep in mind.

For more information, see:

Stump the Priest: The Septuagint vs. the Masoretic Text

This discussion with Gary Michuta (a Roman Catholic apologists) is of interest:


He has also written a book entitled "The Case for the Deuterocanon: Evidence and Arguments," which has a lot of useful information on this subject.


TOPICS: History; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: apocrypha
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To: af_vet_1981; Elsie
If i should even indulge.... You tried this before and your argument is even more vain now then it was then.

And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. (Joh 10:22-24) The Lord went up to the Feast at Jerusalem to minister the Word, as that is all John 10:22-40 describes Him as doing. And He was not in the Temple itself, but "in Solomon's porch ," a porch on the eastern side of the Temple's Outer Court (Women's Court). Which was thus later able to be used by the early church to meet.

The Lord thus at least made use of a cultural celebration to minister the Word, as I often have myself (including Catholic feasts, though I was no more welcome than the Lord was here) and some cultural celebrations are honorable. However, even if the presence of the Lord at the FoD infers giving sanction of it, even as a required observance, this does not affirm, as Scripture, a source which describes its institution, nor does Paul sanctifying a Truth spoken by a pagan on Mar's Hill, or the veracity of the source of the news about eighteen upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, (Luke 13:4) or appealing to Roman law as required observance. (Acts 22:25) Simply affirming a source as stating something Truthful, even as requiring observance, does not make it Scripture, versus invoking Scripture as "Scripture," "It is written," "thus saith the Lord," and the like statements of Divine authority.

But again, the issue of the greater antiquity of the Prot canon of Scripture had already been well-established before you showed up with you end-around attempts to get some yardage. However, as usual, I expect you to continue to flail away no matter how often you are cut down. Just do not expect me to accommodate such.

161 posted on 10/16/2019 9:05:52 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212

>>By what authority did other Catholic scholars have for not accepting all the canon that you hold to now?

Individually, they had none.

>>What infallible, indisputable canon did Luther differ from

Luther removed books that were accepted as canonical. The infallablility declaration is often made to only formalize what was already deemed as such when someone like Luther goes heretic.

>>What books of your Bible did Luther not include in his translation?

He effectively did this to the deauteronical(sp) by saying they were not inspired.

>>What binding canon did Luther set forth?

Nothing he did was “binding” on anyone.

>>By what authority did a man in a hairy garment who are insects have in reproving those who sat in the seat of Moses?

Sorry, Luther was no John the Baptist


162 posted on 10/16/2019 1:54:43 PM PDT by FreshPrince
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To: daniel1212
And He was not in the Temple itself,...

The scripture reads:

καὶ περιεπάτει ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ (Jesus walked in the temple)


Four other translations besides the Authorized Version have it the same: "in the temple" ..., so the argument that the KJV is a mistranslation of the Greek is unpersuasive.
163 posted on 10/16/2019 4:34:21 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: daniel1212
And He was not in the Temple itself,...The Lord thus at least made use of a cultural celebration to minister the Word, as I often have myself ...

Postulating what the Messiah did because one did something two thousand years later is an example/fallacy of cultural bias. There is no evidence in the scripture that the Feast of the Dedication at the Holy Temple was a cultural celebration. There is no other place in scripture that explains the Feast of the Dedication except Second Maccabees and the Gospel of John, which every Christian must accept as inspired by the Holy Spirit, explicitly mentioned the Feast of the Dedication (Re-dedication) of the Holy Temple in the context of the presence of the Messiah. One might consider this very significant and not filler.
164 posted on 10/16/2019 4:41:51 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981

More ignorance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple#Herod%27s_Temple


165 posted on 10/16/2019 6:11:28 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: FreshPrince
Individually, they had none.

Meaning they did not need authority to differ, since they had freedom to do so, down thru centuries. Right into Trent. Which can only presume ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as that is a novel and unScriptural premise. As already stated.

Luther removed books that were accepted as canonical.

Luther removed no books that were dogmatically defined as canonical, which Florence did not do, as already stated here fromm Catholic sources.

The infallablility declaration is often made to only formalize what was already deemed as such when someone like Luther goes heretic.

"Often" but not always, and here Trent settled things that were accepted subjects of debate among Catholics, which included the canon. Luther's rejection of over 7 books on was not even cited as a reason for the excommunication of him as a heretic by the heretical RCC. It only condemns "Purgatory cannot be proved from Sacred Scripture which is in the canon." Which is true, as already shown here since 2 Mac. 12 does not teach it, which even Catholic scholars admit.

What books of your Bible did Luther not include in his translation?

He effectively did this to the deauteronical(sp) by saying they were not inspired.

Meaning they were part of the Bible as one of your comrades effectively argued, but not Scripture as per the most ancient authoritative Jewish canon. As much substantiated already.

>>What binding canon did Luther set forth?

Nothing he did was “binding” on anyone.

Except Catholic seem to think the canon etc. was.

>>By what authority did a man in a hairy garment who are insects have in reproving those who sat in the seat of Moses?

Sorry, Luther was no John the Baptist

Far less are your popes, however the principle remains, that if dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses can be justified, even though dissent from its formal judgments was a capital crime, then much so can dissent from the presumed authority of the RCC Whose distinctive Catholic teachings not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation. which best shows the NT church understood the OT and gospels).

All told you are very late to this debate and short on any prevailing polemic.

166 posted on 10/16/2019 6:11:38 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212


The scripture reads:

καὶ περιεπάτει ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ (Jesus walked in the temple) Four other translations besides the Authorized Version have it the same: "in the temple" ...,

Denying Jesus walked in the temple is a denial of the scripture.
167 posted on 10/16/2019 6:41:38 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981
Four other translations besides the Authorized Version have it the same: "in the temple" ..., so the argument that the KJV is a mistranslation of the Greek is unpersuasive.

This is the type of thing I mean as trying to gain a foothold when you lost the war. I did not argue the KJV is a mistranslation, but made a distinction btwn the temple itself, as meaning the holy place of prayer and Solomon's porch in the "the Temple's Outer Court" (of the Gentiles) though that is also included in the phrase "in the Temple." (Mark 11:15)

When the Jews cried out, "Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place" (Acts 21:28; cf. Luke 1:9) they were not protesting a Gentile being in the Court of the Gentiles, but bring him "into the temple."

To the east of the court was Solomon's Porch, and to the north, the soreg, the "middle wall of separation",[cf. Ephesians 2:14] a stone wall separating the public area from the inner sanctuary where only Jews could enter, described as being 3 cubits high by Josephus (Wars 5.5.2 [3b] 6.2.4).

The point which you missed in your quest for a jot was that Christ is not at all described as going into the inner sanctuary to taker part in worship, but to teach in Solomon's Porch which this opportunity provided Him.

Postulating what the Messiah did because one did something two thousand years later is an example/fallacy of cultural bias. There is no evidence in the scripture that the Feast of the Dedication at the Holy Temple was a cultural celebration. There is no other place in scripture that explains the Feast of the Dedication except Second Maccabees and the Gospel of John, which every Christian must accept as inspired by the Holy Spirit, explicitly mentioned the Feast of the Dedication (Re-dedication) of the Holy Temple in the context of the presence of the Messiah. One might consider this very significant and not filler.

This is supposed to be an argument?! Cultural bias? Because the Dedication at the Holy Temple was not a cultural celebration? Yes, it certainly was a cultural celebration just as the Catholic feasts of St. Anthony etc. I have gone to are, for (surprise) religion usually goes together with culture. And ministering the Word at such or even affirmatively recognizing it simply does not translate into making the record of its institution Scripture. Thus the weight of evidence as shown is that before the church began leadership did not class it as Scripture.

You were given too many chances, and now you really will be ignored, but will give your new-found comrade another chance.

168 posted on 10/16/2019 6:58:49 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212
  1. The scripture reads "Jesus walked in the temple" so the contention that And He was not in the Temple itself, is false.
  2. The Feast of the Dedication was a holy celebration, called out in the scriptures. Trying to relegate it to a cultural celebration not in the scriptures is false.

169 posted on 10/16/2019 7:19:56 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: daniel1212
Supplemental for those who strain at a semantical gnat while swallowing a camel ("into" as temple proper vs. in Herod's temple complex, a distinction manifest in Scripture texts forbidding Gentiles from entering into the temple).

Solomon's Temple: - https://www.shannonmullins.com/equipped-for-the-work-5-2-2/

Herod's temple: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/429812358166982719/?nic=1

This temple area was called the ' Court of the Gentiles'; it was not part of the temple proper, and therefore not sacred soil, consequently any one might enter it. (John Chisholm Lambert: A Dictionary of Christ and the Gospels: Labour-Zion, with appendix and indexes, p. 709

We let some strangers in our house - on the porch - others (like family) into the house.

Regardless of "in" vs. "into" the point remains that affirming something testified to by a source does not itself make the latter Scripture (whether it be prophecy or holy celebrations), and that the weight of evidence testifies to the Deuteros not being part of the most authoritative body of inspired texts in the 1st century - the Palestinian canon which Catholic sources affirm corresponds to the Prot OT canon - of which the Lord only quoted from. Case closed.

Other news: The American grandson of an indigenous ex-shaman was appalled when he saw a video of an Amazonian religious ceremony that took place in the Vatican this week. ..- https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/ex-shamans-grandson-on-vatican-pagan-ritual-i...couldnt-believe-my-eyes

170 posted on 10/17/2019 4:28:38 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ancient-temple-mount-warning-stone-is-closest-thing-we-have-to-the-temple/


171 posted on 10/17/2019 4:45:07 AM PDT by jjotto (Next week, BOOM!, for sure!)
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To: jjotto
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ancient-temple-mount-warning-stone-is-closest-thing-we-have-to-the-temple/

Thank you. .

Two millennia ago, the block served as one of several Do Not Enter signs in the Second Temple in Jerusalem, delineating a section of the 37-acre complex which was off-limits for the ritually impure — Jews and non-Jews alike. Written in Greek (no Latin versions have survived), they warned: “No foreigner may enter within the balustrade around the sanctuary and the enclosure. Whoever is caught, on himself shall he put blame for the death which will ensue.”

Thus the "Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)" (Acts 21:28-29)

Into the temple; that is, into the court of the Jews, which is so far unlawful, that they might have killed a Roman if he had come in there; and everyone was warned by an inscription upon the pillars, Mh dein allofulon entov tou agiou parienai, That no stranger or foreigner might come into that holy place. ( MATTHEW POOLE COMMENTARY)

Gentiles were not only welcome to ascend the Temple Mount, they were also permitted, if not encouraged, to donate animals for sacrifice....Marcus Agrippa and other gentiles could enter the Temple compound, just not the area where holy rituals took place.

True.

“The exclusion of the gentiles, according to the inscription, is a kind of compromise between allowing them into the Temple but still excluding them from the inner temple, which is the properly holy ground,” Orian said.

Despite the Herodian-era status quo, in which gentiles and Jews mingled atop the Temple Mount, most rabbis today maintain the tradition that the entire complex is holy ground and Jewish entry is forbidden. That ban stems from uncertainty over where precisely the Holy of Holies stood.

All of which enables greater (to the redeemed by faith) appreciation of,

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Ephesians 2:13-14; cf. Hebrews 9:12)

172 posted on 10/17/2019 10:09:24 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212

>>Meaning they did not need authority to differ, since they had freedom to do so, down thru centuries.

Yes, they could disagree among themselves but questions were eventually settled under the guidance under the Holy Spirit. Not so with Luther. He thought he was correct because he said so and wanted to ram it down the Church’s throat. I will accept the declarations of the Christ’s Church, even if they take hundreds of years to discern, over some fallible and disturbed monk and his man-made church.


173 posted on 10/17/2019 1:47:08 PM PDT by FreshPrince
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To: FreshPrince
Yes, they could disagree among themselves but questions were eventually settled under the guidance under the Holy Spirit.

So you presume, since Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

But if being the historical magisterial stewards of Scripture means that it is their judgment on the canon that should be followed, then you need to stick with the most authoritative ancient canon.

the protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants.” “...the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia>Canon of the Old Testament; htttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) The Protestant canon of the Old Testament is the same as the Palestinian canon. (The Catholic Almanac, 1960, p. 217)

Not so with Luther. He thought he was correct because he said so and wanted to ram it down the Church’s throat.

You must be another victim of RC propaganda, which is an argument against becoming an RC. For rather wanting to "ram it down the Church’s throat," he actually expressed that his views on the canon were simply his non-biding opinion For instance in his Preface to the Revelation of St. John Luther states ,

About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment.

And in his Preface to the Epistles of St. James,

Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, 1 I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; and my reasons follow.

Read more here on Luther and the canon, and also see the section (right side) on Popular Entries on Martin Luther before you fall victim to more lies about him. There is enough that is true that can be criticized among attributes, but as regards the canon, as said, reality, scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon  after the death of Luther.

Thus Luther was no maverick but had substantial RC support for his non-binding canon.

I will accept the declarations of the Christ’s Church, even if they take hundreds of years to discern, over some fallible and disturbed monk and his man-made church.

You must will to accept what really is her fallible judgment in order to be a faithful RC (well, at least based on the letter of the law, vs. how Rome manifestly considers what passes for faithfulness now). Thus if anyone is ramming the canon down the throat, it is your elitist erroneous church .

174 posted on 10/17/2019 4:28:07 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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