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To: Cronos
Wouldn’t it be that we chose to believe, but the fact that we can choose to and stick to believe be due to God’s grace?,

absolutely not. That assertion is not scriptural, but solely a concept which springs from the reason of man, and is in fact in opposition to the scripture. This debate goes back at least as far as Pelagius, who asserted that grace is not necessary for salvation. I am glad that you stated it the way you did, as it makes clear the real divide here. Salvation (including the decision to repent and believe) is ALL of grace. It is not a bifurcated mix of our effort -whether that effort is to "keep ourselves in the grace of God"... a biblical command- or to believe initially. Again, the assertion from the bible is that the command to believe and the command to continue in the faith are both predicated on the idea that neither are ultimately to be found in us, but in the grace of God.

If a person later decides he no longer believes, then he doesn’t follow what Jesus prescribed “he that endureth to the end will be saved”

if one reads scripture, what does Jesus say saves us?


Indeed

Your answers below assume that these evidences of grace are causes of grace. i.e, that the grace of God is contingent on the activities of men. This is a false assumption. Our faith, and the evidences of faith in obedience, are solely rooted in the grace of God. It is only if you ignore this clear teaching of the bible itself that you can wrest these passages to teach that faith or the consequent obedience that springs from faith originate in the will of man.

Matt. 24:13 “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matt 25:31-46 “34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.” Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) —> note these are HIS own words 1 Pet. 3:20-21: “ It (Baptism )saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” Note — also in Acts 16:31 we are told to believe and you will be saved — so Faith is definitely one of the things needed, yet as you see above, it is not ONLY faith. Remember — James says “even the demons believe - and shudder” — it is not faith ALONE that saves Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God’s GRACE. Full-stop.

Agreed... and of course

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. — it’s never faith ALONE. Note that the faith brings out fruits in us - our “works” can’t save us, but yet those who faith, those with grace, show it in their works. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16) [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)<,li> [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54) no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE.

There ain't no such animal. Such "faith" is not saving faith, but rather an intellectual assent, possibly combined with some emotional froth. As the passage in James cited above, even the demons have such "faith"

As shown above, Jesus Himself said that He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16) [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3 [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54) So, we have the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don’t “save us” per se, since it is Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation

true
BR> that we can accept or reject

also true, but I refuse to acknowledge that our acceptance or rejection of this is rooted in men. This is where your logic has trumped scripture. You are making an assumption here that ignores the root issue.

The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.

Indeed. Truer than you know.

It is possible that you are Roman Catholic in your postion and understanding. You should review Augustine and his controversy with Pelagius, and consider that Pelaginansim (essentialy the position you have outlined above, has been declared a heresy by the church itself. It is the re-adoption of this position of heresy, and incorporated into the official teachings of the church at Trent(!) which is the root of the difficulty we have here.
26 posted on 08/26/2019 7:42:54 AM PDT by mostly_lies
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To: mostly_lies

Thank you - I’ll read it later. But I reject both Pelaginansim and semi-Pelaginansim —> as I said, we can’t save ourselves, no matter what we do — that was what Pelagius asserted.

More, let me get back to you tomorrow :)


27 posted on 08/26/2019 7:57:00 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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To: mostly_lies

Thank you for your patience and reply.

To your first paragraph - it is scriptural that we choose to believe. But note my assertion that the ability, the fact that we can is due to God’s grace. It is not something we can be proud of, nor that we save ourselves. It is that we choose to hold on to the life-saving ring thrown around us by God (God’s grace being the ring)

This is NOT Pelagian - as I stated clearly, grace is essential for and is how we are saved. We do not save ourselves.

“your answers below...” — no, I pointed out these are evidences of grace given by God, but those that God said we should do as a sign of our grace
Matt 24:12 “endure to the end”
Matt 25 - look after the poor and sick
1 Pet - baptism
Acts 16:31 believe and be saved’

Note that each point it is God’s grace that acts through us, and it is God’s grace that saves us.


37 posted on 08/27/2019 12:12:05 AM PDT by Cronos (Re-elect President Trump 2020!)
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