What Is Better, Catholic or Protestant? Francis: “Both of Them Together”

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[ebb tide]

What Is Better, Catholic or Protestant? Francis: “Both of Them Together”

The Youth Pastoral Office of Magdeburg diocese, Germany, will organize an October 2020 “ecumenical pilgrimage” for young people to Rome.

The motto of the journey is “With Luther to the Pope”. A similar trip was already taken in 2016.

The pilgrimage is co-organized by the regional Protestant State church, although the Protestants repudiate pilgrimages.

On the trip's webpage Mit-Luther-zum-Papst.de, the tour operator, Hans Höffmann, remembers what Pope Francis said to the participants of the 2016 pilgrimage when asked by a youngster: "What is better, Catholic or Protestant? Francis answered in German: "Both of them together!”

Martin Luther attended school in Magdeburg as a boy. As a preacher, he led the city to defect from the Church. Magdeburg became the first major city to publish Luther’s writings.

[sparklite2]

It’s my understanding that early princes of the church opted for infant baptism as a life long guarantee. Later, though, they came believe that sins committed in a state of grace, i.e. post-baptism, were more serious that sins committed while unbaptized.

To counter this, they moved baptism up until older age so as to have less of a spiritual burden at death. That worked until someone fell of his horse, smacked his head into a rock, and died unbaptized.

The solution was to go back to infant baptizing, but to ‘discover’ a post-death/pre-judgement period where sins committed in a state of grace could be worked off. Thus, purgatory.

[metmom]

1 Corinthians 15:46-55 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”

[Mrs. Don-o]

Salvation is won for us --- once and for all --- by Jesus' offering of Himself, the innocent Lamb of God, on the cross at Calvary. This is the self-same sacrifice as that of the Last Supper, as Jesus says "This is the blood of the covenant" --- and there's only one blood of the covenant, only one Lamb that was slain.

Holy Thursday and Good Friday are one Sacrifice.

And this is the self-same sacrifice as the Sacrifice of the Mass --- same priest (Christ), same sacrificial offering same Body and Blood (Himself) --- not done "again," but made present as an eternal offering.

Holy Thursday AND Good Friday AND the Mass are one Sacrifice. This is eternal: this is the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.

You have to stop and think of that a minute. "before the foundation of the world." That's why it has this aspect of being both "in time," and "timeless," beyond time. It is not repeated: it is extended into eternity.

Salvation itself --- what Heaven is --- is Communion with Christ and with all the saints (the Body of Christ) That is salvation: and the Sacrament of the Eucharist on earth is a foretaste of that Communion. It is a generous distribution of this (eternal) oneness --- He in us, we in Him --- right here on earth. It is an earthly partaking of the Heavenly Banquet.

It is for sure a remembrance, but far beyond what we could call a remembrance of earthly things, which is just nostalgia, or an imitation performance. THis is not cosplay. We are not re-enactors.

It is an actual participation in Christ's sacrifice now, on earth as it is in heaven. It is an actual participation in the past the (Upper Room, Calvary Hill) and the future (Heaven) at once, in this eternal now.

If it's to be called a symbol, then it is a symbol that conduces into reality, and a remembrance which does not just represent, but which RE - PRESENTS. It make us presently "present" with Christ, whose Real Presence is with us and in us.

In a way,it's not "preparation for Heaven" or "a way to get to Heaven", but it is Heaven itself, for it is Chris, and where He is, is Heaven.

[ebb tide]

I made a slight addition to your statement:

The solution was to go back to infant baptizing, but to ‘discover’ a post-death/pre-judgement period where sins committed in a state of grace could be worked off (through the Sacrament of Confession). Thus, purgatory.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"Protestant" doesn't mean that. "Protestant" means once "saved", always "saved" according to some posters on this forum.

You seem to have confused "protestant" with Christian.

[imardmd1]

"Protestant" doesn't mean that. "Protestant" means once "saved", always "saved" according to some posters on this forum.

Then you don't know what Arminianism is, or Anglican, Episcopal, Methodist, etc. These denominations say that salvation can be obtained by anyon, but that experience shows many who have received it by infan baptism or enthusiatic knowledgeable profession can lose their status by not following their tenets.

On the other hand, Presbyterians/Calvinists they say salvation is not for everybody, that only some particular humans selected by God get saved and that for ever, and that others who can never get saved need not apply.

No offense, but I can see that your scope of theology can be extended.

I count myself to believe according to the gospel and its implementation as in the beginning New Testament era; salvation of which everlasting absolute life is a freely obtained feature based on faith-based repentance, with furthering of the new status by local independent autonomous Bible-preaching that recognizes the ordinances of water baptism into discipleship as a certified member of the local assembly professing in servanthood to Jesus Messiah and Master, and communal partaking of the Remembrance Supper of the tokens of Hesus' death on the cross, till He come.

A true local ordained gathering of Christ-followers is administered under the polity of a plurality of coequal elders recognized for their spiritual maturity, into whose care both the welfare and church discipline is entrusted.

That culture is neither catholic (with or without a capital C), nor is it a reformed adaptation of the Roman Catholic theology circa 1500 AD, nor is it protesting Catholic lordship over a state's religious population. It is neither Catholic bor Protestant, but it has been globally present for a long, long time, perpetuated by faithful recruitment of disciples for The Christ.

I hope that clarifies my position somewhat.

[Mom MD]

Coming from a tradition that practices infant baptism we believe neither. Christ commanded to baptize all nations. In Acts entire households were baptized no mention of an age. We baptize infants in response to our Lords command to baptize all nations. This does not impart immediate or lifelong salvation. The baptized child is brought up in the knowledge of God and makes their decision to be confirmed as an older teen, repeating the vows made for them at baptism This does not save either. The only thing that saves is being born from above through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ. All else is done in obedience to our Lord. The individual decision is just that — an individual decision. Flame away.....

[ealgeone]

A lot of things are confused with some.

[ebb tide]

Then you don't know what Arminianism is, or Anglican, Episcopal, Methodist, etc. These denominations say that salvation can be obtained by anyon, but that experience shows many who have received it by infan baptism or enthusiatic knowledgeable profession can lose their status by not following their tenets.

You misread my post. I said some protestant posters on this forum believe once saved, always saved. I singled out no denomination(s), because most of these posters refuse to reveal their sect, if any.

Take Post #425 for instance.

N.B.: I find the ex-Catholics on this forum to be the most adamant about "once saved, always saved".

[ealgeone]

Salvation is won for us --- once and for all --- by Jesus' offering of Himself, the innocent Lamb of God, on the cross at Calvary. This is the self-same sacrifice as that of the Last Supper, as Jesus says "This is the blood of the covenant" --- and there's only one blood of the covenant, only one Lamb that was slain.

IF you'd stopped in your first sentence you'd have NT Christianity down pat.

However, Roman Catholicism does not advance that.

Some of Rome's "doctors" advance the following:

Saint Anselm says, ‘that as it is impossible for one who is not devout to Mary, and consequently not protected by her, to be saved.

******************

Now that is a clear contradiction of the New Testament and is outright blasphemy.

Next we have this nonsense.

******** ***********************

In the Glories of Mary the following is recorded: Oh, how many would have remained obstinate in sin, and have been eternally lost,’ says Thomas a Kempis, ‘if Mary had not interposed with her Son, that He might show them mercy! It is also the opinion of many theologians, and of Saint Thomas in particular, that for many who have died in mortal sin the Divine Mother has obtained from God a suspension of their sentence, and a return to life to do penance Trustworthy authors give us many instances in which this has occurred….But these examples serve to revive our confidence with the reflection, that if the Divine Mother has been able to deliver from hell even some who have died in sin, how much more will she be able to preserve from a similar lot those who, during life, have recourse to her with a purpose of amendment, and who serve her faithfully!.... The same do I hope for myself, O my own most holy Queen; and therefore I will always repeat the words of Saint Bonaventure, ‘In thee, O Lady, have I placed all my hopes; and thus I confidently trust that I shall never be lost, but praise and love thee for ever in heaven.’

St Alphonsus de'Liguori, The Glories of Mary, p188-190

The book carries this statement: WE hereby approve of this Translation of "The Glories of Mary," and cordially recommend it to the Faithful. Nicholas Card. Wiseman, Archbisop of Westminster

To illustrate the statements above aren't from the average Roman Catholic I provide the following below.

To my knowledge none of their statements above have been repudiated by Rome.

Liguori was canonized by Pope Gregory XVI and proclaimed a Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius in 1871.

**********

IF these are not true would you be the first Roman Catholic to say these are all false?

Should be just a yes or no anwser.

[metmom]

"Protestant" doesn't mean that. "Protestant" means once "saved", always "saved" according to some posters on this forum.

And who told you that?

Could you provide the link to those comments please?

[metmom]

You misread my post. I said some protestant posters on this forum believe once saved, always saved.

Horse hockey. Nobody misread anything.

What you SAID was this, and it's copied and pasted, a quote.

"Protestant" doesn't mean that. "Protestant" means once "saved", always "saved" according to some posters on this forum.

You are not kidding ANYONE.

[imardmd1]

I didn't misread your post #418 at all. In fact I copied it exactly in my answer to that. You said exactly >> "Protestant" doesn't mean that << and it is to you r clear refutation of what I initially said to you.

I am quite well aware that the denominations classified as Protestant include infant-baptizers of both kinds, OSAS or not.

My kind of belief was present from the beginning of churches of the kind defined in the New Testament, none of which water baptized infants, only those mature enough to intelligently profess not only a belief recognizing the Jesus of the Bible, but also that there commitment to immersion was the rite of induction into the local assembly as a certified discipling learner of the culture and doctrine espoused by the Apostles.

This is not a group coming after the formation of Romanistic theology back in 323 AD, and splitting off the Roman or Greek Catholic churches circa 1550 protesting the unbiblical excesses they were subjected to by the RCC.

The grouping I belong to came way prior to the RCC or the Protesters or the Reformers, and that is why I said "NEITHER!"

[Al Hitan]

Paul's Baptism Oopsie

[ebb tide]

The grouping I belong to came way prior to the RCC or the Protesters or the Reformers, and that is why I said "NEITHER!"

And what "grouping" would that be? Does "it" have a name?

[ebb tide]

"Protestant" means once "saved", always "saved" according to some posters on this forum.

I stand by that statement.

[MHGinTN]

Your carnal mind is stuck. The Remembrance ceremony which JESUS instituted is a spiritual interaction BUT ONLY the born again, born from above can make that spiritual connection in the breaking of bread and sip of wine, the SYMBOLS of the body sacrificed on the cross and the blood shed there on our behalf carried into the Holy of Holies to be sprinkled upon the Mercy Seat IN HEAVEN. In your carnal state you cannot receive that TRUTH, for it is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.

[MHGinTN]

The second sentence in that quote from the Catholic teacher is what glares as false: "This is the self-same sacrifice (the death upon the cross on our behalf) as that of the Last Supper, as Jesus says "This is the blood of the covenant" --- and there's only one blood of the covenant, only one Lamb that was slain." Her carnal mind does not see the 'poured out' and jumps to 'I'll drink that blood to get the Christ in me'. The blood of the New Covenant is POUR OUT, not drunk by believers. JESUS the High Priest pour the wine out. It was a symbol of what He was about to do for us, not so Catholics can drink Him into their alimentary tracts but to attach the believer to the Lord Christ in performing the ceremony of BREAD and WINE.

[metmom]

Then provide the links to the comments and prove that someone said it.

[metmom]

You are contradicting yourself in what you claimed you said.

You said it the first time, now own it, and yet changed the wording when replying to another poster and claim THAT is what you said.

Try to get your story straight.

It will give you FAR more credibility next time you make a claim.

As it is, it’s shot fuller of holes than Swiss cheese and nobody has any reason to believe any statement you make from here on out.