[daniel1212]

There is no such thing as the Rapture

I believe the 'rapture" is the resurrection of the believers, which I see as coming at the end of the tribulation. However, denying the tribulation is also unscriptural, and making such texts as 1 Co. 3 to refer to Purgatory and that doctrine is worse than the misleading error of the rapture.

[Cronos]

The rapture as in "left behind" is false. And no one's denying the tribulation that the people of Jerusalem experienced when it fell -- Jesus Himself said Matthew 24

24 And Jesus being come out of the temple, went away. And his disciples came to shew him the buildings of the temple.

² And he answering, said to them: Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you there shall not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed.

³ And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world?

⁴ And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you:

⁵ For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.

⁶ And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places:

⁸ Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows.

⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

¹⁰ And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.

¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.

¹² And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.

¹³ But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.

¹⁵ When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

¹⁶ Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains:

¹⁷ And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat.

¹⁹ And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days.

²⁰ But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.

²¹ For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be.

²² And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened.

²³ Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

²⁵ Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

²⁶ If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not.

²⁷ For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be.

²⁸ Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together.

²⁹ And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.

³² And from the fig tree learn a parable: When the branch thereof is now tender, and the leaves come forth, you know that summer is nigh.

³³ So you also, when you shall see all these things, know ye that it is nigh, even at the doors.

³⁴ Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

³⁵ Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.

³⁶ But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.

³⁷ And as in the days of Noe, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, even till that day in which Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And they knew not till the flood came, and took them all away; so also shall the coming of the Son of man be.

⁴⁰ Then two shall be in the field: one shall be taken, and one shall be left.

⁴¹ Two women shall be grinding at the mill: one shall be taken, and one shall be left.

⁴² Watch ye therefore, because ye know not what hour your Lord will come.

[HarleyD]

However, denying the tribulation is also unscriptural

I'm not so sure on this one. I'm currently doing a study on Biblical eschatology and there are some very good scriptural arguments against a tribulation.

1) Christ return is suppose to be like "a thief in the night". We are to watch and pray. If we are not currently in a tribulation, then we know that Christ return is not eminent. Same problem exist with the rebuilding of the temple. Christ isn't going to return like a thief until the temple is rebuilt.

2) According to tribulation theory, the church (and Holy Spirit) will be pulled out of the world (raptured) while other believers will go through the tribulation. This has a problem in that it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgment. If the Holy Spirit is gone, then who is going to convict the world?

3) John states in Revelation 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." John didn't look at the tribulation as something that was to come but was already happening. Paul likewise talks of us going through tribulation (e.g. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8:35 is one place)

There are far more arguments against a future tribulation but I thought these were pretty solid. It is not that I am denying the tribulation. But according to John and Paul we are currently in the tribulation. Christ is going to come back like a thief in the night and we are to be not like the foolish maidens who did not keep enough oil for their lamps for the bride groom return.

A most excellent book on eschatology is Biblical Eschatology, Second Edition, Edition 0002 by Jonathan Menn‎.

[Elsie]

Why the Rapture isn’t Biblical… And Why it Matters

‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2019‎ ‎10‎:‎02‎:‎30‎ ‎AM · 44 of 201
daniel1212 to Cronos; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; BlueDragon; metmom; boatbums; ...

 

 

 

Since this thread has already ramped up to 201 replies before I've even seen it; I doubt that I would be posting anything new.

 

I guess all the folks over the centuries that have translated the Greek into languages in use today messed up badly while

translating this verse that has been so meticulously picked apart here.