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Becoming Catholic
OSV.com ^ | 03-28-19 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 03/30/2019 8:12:59 AM PDT by Salvation

Becoming Catholic


Msgr. Charles Pope

Question: I had reason to hope my niece was going to convert to the Catholic faith. But there were so many obstacles the Church set up that discouraged her. She was asked to go to classes, and they told her that her marriage was not valid and she would need an annulment. Further, it was necessary to wait until Easter, etc. The nearby evangelical church set up no such obstacles, and she was able to join at once and be considered a member. I hear so much talk of evangelization today, but I share my niece’s frustration. Can we not streamline this process?

Name withheld

Answer: There is a kind of appealing simplicity that you describe in many Protestant denominations. But there are problems with the approach that should give us pause. Ultimately evangelization is more about conversion than mere membership. We are summoned to embrace the saving teaching of the Lord and to walk according to it.

Because adults make informed decisions, the Church considers it important to teach them the fundamentals of the Faith so that they can know what it is they are agreeing to when they enter the Church. Although some of the Scriptures portray an almost instant, on-the-spot baptism, the consensus in the early Church shifted to a lengthy, three-year period of instruction (called the catechumenate) prior to baptism. This likely was because of the insight that quick conversions often led to quick departures or a falling away when the true demands of discipleship became known.

Instructions are most insisted upon for those who are unbaptized. In the case of those who are baptized and come from different Protestant denominations, the length and content of instructions will depend on their background. It is up to the discretion of the pastor who discerns with each individual what is needed. It is certainly not required for those already baptized to “wait until next Easter.”

The concerns about a person’s marital status are rooted in the very words and teachings of Jesus himself. He teaches without ambiguity that for a person to marry, then divorce and enter another marriage, puts them in an ongoing state of adultery in the “new” marriage (cf. Mt 5:32; Mt 19:1-9; Mk 10:11-12; Lk 16:18, etc). He adds rather firmly, “What God has joined together, let no one divide” (Mt 19:9).

It will be further noted that when the Lord was evangelizing the woman at the well, he brought her to a moment of conversion, and she asked for the gift of faith. But the Lord Jesus saw fit to first raise with her the fact that she had been married five times and was now living with a man outside of marriage. Her conversion would not be complete or adequate until she was willing to live chastely. Then the graces could flow.

For reasons of their own, many Protestant denominations have decided to practically overlook such passages. But the Catholic Church takes the Lord’s teaching on these matters rather seriously, as he clearly intended that we should. In some cases, after an investigation based on evidence, the Church may use its power to bind and loose, to indicate that the previous marriage was not “what God has joined,” and it recognizes the first marriage as null. A person’s current marriage then can be blessed and recognized. But we simply cannot set the Lord’s words aside as if they were of little importance.

Thus some conversions to the Catholic faith will take some time to be faithful to the teachings of the Lord and the nature of true conversion. It is worth the diligence required.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bornagain; catholic; protestant
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To: Luircin
We could use more Roman Catholics with a sense of humor on these threads.

THAT'll be a LONG time coming; considering how their current leader leaves them in such a sour mood all the time!

861 posted on 04/05/2019 5:07:48 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: imardmd1
…you were attempting to reprove Elsie.

Not to worry; for I've been called UGLY! by many a toad.

862 posted on 04/05/2019 5:09:21 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
 He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
863 posted on 04/05/2019 5:10:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: af_vet_1981

I agree with all the Messiah and His Apostles wrote, and not what heretics teach.
 
 
Well; since we've no evidence that Jesus wrote anything (other than something in the dust),
we'll just have to believe that what the other dudes wrote was then accurately what He said.
 
Call no man father stands out in my mind.

864 posted on 04/05/2019 5:15:22 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums; aMorePerfectUnion; Songcraft
The Hidden Exodus - Catholics Becoming Protestants

And count me in on that.

Also, there are Evangelical churches in the Buffalo area that are chock a block full of former Catholics.

In some churches there it's surprising to find someone converting out of any other religious background.

There have to be millions who have converted from Catholicism who do it quietly and without fanfare.

I notice that *Prots* don't make the big deal of name dropping of *former Catholics* like the Catholics like to do of those who have converted TO Catholicism.

865 posted on 04/05/2019 5:37:12 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; boatbums
Nice article boatbums. Thanks for posting. “One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.”

That puts quiete the dent in 1.2 billion, doesn't it?

866 posted on 04/05/2019 5:38:31 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Mark17
The rest of them just left. I don’t know for sure why, but many of those, were pro abortion and Hillary supporters.

Most Catholics I have ever met, even the practicing ones who are considered faithful, vote the same.

I'm guessing that at the most MAYBE 1:10 Catholics I have ever met are non-dme voting.

Based on experience, though, I don't think the number is that high.

867 posted on 04/05/2019 5:48:00 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: af_vet_1981
I agree with all the Messiah and His Apostles wrote, and not what heretics teach.

This is what Messiah and His apostles have to say about salvation and the security of the believer.

Salvation by grace by believing

John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3-8 Jesus answered him,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

John 20:30-31 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Acts 16:27-31 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

2 Corinthians 6:2 For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Romans 3:20-30 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:4-8 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

Security of the believer

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Hebrews 6:17-20 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Jude v24 "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy"

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3156607/posts?page=313#313

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:

2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων

The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.

The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”

The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”

868 posted on 04/05/2019 5:56:43 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Songcraft

So aside from your rationalization, what in the passage indicates that He was using hyperbole.

You do realize, don’t you, that He used those techniques with the masses, not the disciples.


869 posted on 04/05/2019 6:01:05 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Songcraft; metmom; Elsie; boatbums
Songcraft: For example, when Jesus said (in Luke 14:26) that, if anyone came to Him, and did not hate his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he could not be His disciple, did He mean that literally, or was He (obviously) just using hyperbole, to make His point more forcefully, so it would stick with them, and did not seriously mean that they had to hate all those people in their lives to be his disciples?

Just another example that not only do you not know what you are talking about, but you cast your argument in a framework that is carnal, not spiritual. In this passage, Jesus is not using hyperbole, He means what he is saying in plain literal terms, not figurative-literal.

The key word here is the Koine Greek verb ἀγαπάω (ag-ah-pah-oh)ἀγαπάω) uniquely defined and applied in the Christian culture, meaning specifically "to sovereignly prefer one over self and others."

As used by Jesus in the passage above, the verb μισέω (mis-eh-oh) means exactly the opposite; that is "to sovereignly prefer oneself and/or others above the primary object to which reference is made."

In the passage you cite, Jesus was not talking about filial love at all. He was talking about choosing to internalize and follow His commands over and above any behaviors demanded by filial allegiance or social manners, or even according to personal preferences in conflict with His desire.

Now, one can be some sort of follower of Jesus as a religious luminary or seen as a truly functional healer of physical disorders; but to qualify for induction as His disciple, one must convincingly profess total compliance to His Perfect Will as against one's own fallible fickle desires, as well as above those of other acquaintances, no matter what other relationship exists.

The "sovereign" part simply means that one's own will, which is unilaterally exercised and not governable by anyone else, has been invoked to make that choice of whose will is to be preferred even above one's own.

In your argument for "hyperbole" in the above, you have tried to displace the doctrine asserted by Jesus The Messiah with your own doctrine that is founded on passion and tradition rather than on the secure definition of preference that is not related to one's feeling.

In fact, if one chooses to prefer the wishes of one's own fallible and sinful nature, or the seemingly beneficial desires of father or mother or other human siblings rather than the expressed Will of God and His Son, you cannot be and are not fit to be inducted into the company of professed disciples by the external rite of water baptism by immersion. Without this declared and proven total allegiance, one cannot be accepted as a disciple of The Christ. A very similar application of the "Love (agapahoh)/hate (misehoh)" either/or relationship is found in the following:

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" (Mt. 6:24 AV; bolding added for emphasis).

This also has no hyperbolic sense in its interpretation. But it is an exact analogy to what Jesus said about being his Disciple, contrary to your attempt to confuse the issues involved. This is not to say that some Biblical figures did not try the same pretense that you are trying to float. As seen by the person understanding Greek, Simon, before he was born in the spirit on Pentecost and therefore was still unsaved (though accounted as a "believer" even while a failure in his profession) was asked by the Risen Jesus:

"So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son ofbar Jonas, lovest thouαγαπας me more than these?" (Jn. 21:15a,b AV; the actual Greek superscripted).

Simon, trying to displace the call to total submission by diverting the basis of the argument, responded:

"He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I loveφιλω thee" (Jn. 21:15c,d AV; the actual Greek superscripted).

Three times it is here again, even when closely pressed by the Savior, he failed to agree, as in all his previous history with Jesus, to a total irreversible complete come-what-may commitment to be the sole possession, bondslave, and fully qualified disciple of the God-man.

This is exactly the kind of diversion you are trying to place in the path of metmom here. By it you are using a logical fallacy and Jesuit's trickery to avoid coming to grips with the meaning and intent of obeying the Will of God concerning the Divine authority over man's oppositional deconstruction of Bible doctrine.

======

Songcraft: That's exactly what He was doing when He said, "Call no man father", making His point more forcefully and memorably by, once again, using hyperbole.

It was not hyperbole, it was again quite literal. The idea was not to give anyone in a Christian group the title "Father" (or "Reverend"); a title for other use than merely indicating a literal family relationship or a figurative affectionate designation of one's elderly status. In a religious organization this formal title but identifies the persona and presumes that he is an officer with sacerdotal duties reserved only for his class of clergymen.

Regarding this "Father" issue, when Jesus ordained, as recorded in Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father upon the earth: . . . ", he was not talking about the filial relationship between a male and his true get, nor is it an affectionate term for an old man. The context refers to the body of a religious organization and a title bestowed upon a member of a separated class of congregational leaders, a clergyman, so to speak. In that ordinance we see the aversion of the True Father and His Son for the establishment of a domineering clerical class in His Churches, of which only He is the head. That is seen quite literally in His Letter to the Angel messenger of the Gospel of Ephesus, "But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nnicolaitans, which I also hate"; and again to the appointed herald of the Pergamos assembly, "So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nnicolaitans, which thing I hate."

The humanist-oriented errant inclination of some early church assemblies was of influential members of te congregation attempting to reduplicate (as in not only the Jewish religion, but also in other Gentile religions) a separated class of clergymen who could and did use the bully pulpit to dominate the "lay" (la-os) people through their influence, giving not only functional eldership through congregationally-agreed and obvious spiritual maturity, but exaggerated by giviing titles to these selected ones: Father, Bishop, Elder, Archbishop, Cardinal etc. to underline their position as political and governing; an invented sacerdotal priesthood whose assigned duties a layman or laywoman was not permitted to exercise.

God hates this. The Son hates this. The Spirit hates this. And so should every member of a local assembly of co-equal human peers gathered to implement Christ's wishes for felloesip, service, and outreach.

For the truly mature Christian, it is the one really knowing his/her Heavenly Father who simply does not belong to any man-made organization that selects out priests as leaders, that titles them as Father or "The Reverend"; and gives individuals special guarantees, garments, and gestures together with liturgies and jargon that gives them special unshared roles.

Eisegetically and wrongly interpreted as antinomiams and hedonists, the properly exegetically translated "Nicolaitans" are those who νικάω (nee-kah-oh)(ovecomme, conquer, prevail) over the λαός (lah-awss)(ordinary, common) people.

No "Fathers" for me, pal. Maybe for you, but not for me in any Biblical group of true Christ-followers that I would associate with or recommend to any Gospel-seeker.

=======

To paraphrase Pink Floyd, re the inset panoply of Cath links in your challenge:

"We don't need no (Roman) edducayshun; we don't need no "Magic-steers-'em)" thought control;

No dark sarxism in the FR forum classroom.

Romanist, leave us FR kids alone."

No more bricks in the wall, eh?

With the Bible on one hand, and the Spirit on the other, and the mind of Christ guiding us, together we can figure these things out, Songcrafter.

Eh, metmom?

Eh, boatbums?

Eh, Els?

870 posted on 04/05/2019 6:02:03 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: Elsie; af_vet_1981; Luircin
Some people are hung up on obedience, as if that finds favor for salvation with God.

Yet here we are told......

Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

871 posted on 04/05/2019 6:04:24 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

.


872 posted on 04/05/2019 6:50:33 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Salvation

Since no Catholic “believer“ found time to answer this question when it was supposed a few days ago… I will pose it again.

“””It is interesting and telling that Catholic apologists NEVER want to talk about just JESUS....it is ALWAYS ‘the Catholic Church’ and Jesus..... as if Jesus would simply not exist without ‘the church’.....

so Catholics....question for you..... WOULD Jesus, could and can Jesus SAVE, without the ‘catholic church’ as ‘his only door to the lost world’??”””


873 posted on 04/05/2019 7:35:31 AM PDT by RevelationDavid
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To: af_vet_1981

Boy, you just LOVE ignoring the parts of Scripture you don’t like, it seems. You never have a response other than to post verses you do like, as if Scripture could negate itself.

Heretics like St. Augustine who taught salvation by faith alone? Or St. John Chrystosom, who taught salvation by faith alone? Or a heretic like St. Clement, who taught salvation by faith alone? Or a heretic like St. Jerome, who taught salvation by faith alone?

Why haven’t you decanonized them all if they’re heretics for teaching the same thing Luther taught?

Unless, of course, Roman Catholicism is as hypocritical as the Pharisees.


874 posted on 04/05/2019 8:29:40 AM PDT by Luircin
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To: RevelationDavid

“Since no Catholic “believer“ found time to answer this question when it was supposed a few days ago… I will pose it again.”

Perhaps you could start a new thread with that question...


875 posted on 04/05/2019 8:30:56 AM PDT by Ken H (2019 => The House of Representin')
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To: metmom

Ten to one odds that he either won’t respond, or will respond only with Scripture he’s decided he likes and so apparently can negate the part he doesn’t like.


876 posted on 04/05/2019 8:34:30 AM PDT by Luircin
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To: Luircin
Well then; to replace any rabbits with pancakes on head....


How fast can today's computers search for images using textual descriptions?
 
 
 
 
 
Evolution of the generated samples as training progresses on ImageNet.
The generator network is conditioned on the class (e.g., "great gray owl" or "golden  retriever").

877 posted on 04/05/2019 8:59:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Songcraft
 

All this to try to justify disobeying the VERY clear words of Jesus.
Sad...
 
 
Call No Man Father???? - Jesse Romero
"Call No Man Father" vs. Priests Addressed as "Father"? - Dave Armstrong
Call No Man "Father"? - Catholic Answers
Call No Man "Father"? - Catholic Answers (Jimmy Akin)
Call No Man Father: Understanding Matthew 23:9 - Philip Gray
Call No Man Father by Sebastian R. Fama
Call No Man Father By Fr. Richard Ballew (Orthodox)
Call No Man Father? by Douglas Cramer (Orthodox)
Call No Man Father
'Call No Man Father': Why do Catholics call Priests ‘Father‘? By Matt1618
Jesus said to call no man “father” so why do Catholics call priests “father”?

878 posted on 04/05/2019 9:03:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RevelationDavid
Since no Catholic “believer“ found time to answer this question when it was supposed a few days ago… I will pose it again.

That happens a lot.

879 posted on 04/05/2019 9:10:43 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: RevelationDavid

so Catholics....question for you..... WOULD Jesus, could and can Jesus SAVE, without the ‘catholic church’ as ‘his only door to the lost world’??”””


I believe Jesus does save Christians who are not Catholic.

I am a lifelong Catholic like my Dad, who became a deacon after he retired. My Mom was a devout Methodist who was very involved in her church life.

One day I told my Dad that I was praying that Mom would become Catholic like us. He told me in no uncertain terms that I should rather pray that I become as good a Christian as Mom.

My sister became a devout Methodist who is very involved in her church life. One of my daughters is a devout Christian who is very involved in her church life.

I cannot believe that Jesus would reject these wonderful women who truly believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.


880 posted on 04/05/2019 9:11:38 AM PDT by rwa265
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