Posted on 03/30/2019 8:12:59 AM PDT by Salvation
Question: I had reason to hope my niece was going to convert to the Catholic faith. But there were so many obstacles the Church set up that discouraged her. She was asked to go to classes, and they told her that her marriage was not valid and she would need an annulment. Further, it was necessary to wait until Easter, etc. The nearby evangelical church set up no such obstacles, and she was able to join at once and be considered a member. I hear so much talk of evangelization today, but I share my niece’s frustration. Can we not streamline this process?
— Name withheld
Answer: There is a kind of appealing simplicity that you describe in many Protestant denominations. But there are problems with the approach that should give us pause. Ultimately evangelization is more about conversion than mere membership. We are summoned to embrace the saving teaching of the Lord and to walk according to it.
Because adults make informed decisions, the Church considers it important to teach them the fundamentals of the Faith so that they can know what it is they are agreeing to when they enter the Church. Although some of the Scriptures portray an almost instant, on-the-spot baptism, the consensus in the early Church shifted to a lengthy, three-year period of instruction (called the catechumenate) prior to baptism. This likely was because of the insight that quick conversions often led to quick departures or a falling away when the true demands of discipleship became known.
Instructions are most insisted upon for those who are unbaptized. In the case of those who are baptized and come from different Protestant denominations, the length and content of instructions will depend on their background. It is up to the discretion of the pastor who discerns with each individual what is needed. It is certainly not required for those already baptized to “wait until next Easter.”
The concerns about a person’s marital status are rooted in the very words and teachings of Jesus himself. He teaches without ambiguity that for a person to marry, then divorce and enter another marriage, puts them in an ongoing state of adultery in the “new” marriage (cf. Mt 5:32; Mt 19:1-9; Mk 10:11-12; Lk 16:18, etc). He adds rather firmly, “What God has joined together, let no one divide” (Mt 19:9).
It will be further noted that when the Lord was evangelizing the woman at the well, he brought her to a moment of conversion, and she asked for the gift of faith. But the Lord Jesus saw fit to first raise with her the fact that she had been married five times and was now living with a man outside of marriage. Her conversion would not be complete or adequate until she was willing to live chastely. Then the graces could flow.
For reasons of their own, many Protestant denominations have decided to practically overlook such passages. But the Catholic Church takes the Lord’s teaching on these matters rather seriously, as he clearly intended that we should. In some cases, after an investigation based on evidence, the Church may use its power to bind and loose, to indicate that the previous marriage was not “what God has joined,” and it recognizes the first marriage as null. A person’s current marriage then can be blessed and recognized. But we simply cannot set the Lord’s words aside as if they were of little importance.
Thus some conversions to the Catholic faith will take some time to be faithful to the teachings of the Lord and the nature of true conversion. It is worth the diligence required.
Jesus said *It is finished*.
He did what He came to do.
(fixed that)
(Inoculation is deliberate infection with a very weak form of something that gives antibodies against ever catching the real thing.)
“Perfect” is a loaded word to toss around, especially in this room, so to speak, and in this context.
None the less, I understood the perspective you were showing me and I agree with it.
It’s a fun way to look at what I “see” as a supernatural Holy Truth that is hard for our rational, earthly minds to grasp and accept.
This is certainly the case with me with some things and might also be what I see in others, too.
The beginning of the first dispensation is summed up here:
Genesis 2:16-18 AV:The next chapter of it is recorded here:
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Genesis 3:14-19 AV:It is the account that records progressive revelation of God's plan for mankind, completed when Beloved John laid down his pen for the last time, about 100 AD, and available to God's people ever since.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
As for Moses and Daniel and Isaiah, many of these prophecies were not understood until they were in the process of happening, yet the prophets wrote them down as commanded by Jehovah Elohim.
Daniel 9:26-27 AV:The late-comers you mentioned in Post #1309 are simply Bible students who explained the events foretold by the prophets and apostles when the canon of the Bible was in the process of being disclosed but not understood then, only incident with history as happening recently.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 12:8-10 AV:
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Watch and pray for salvific understanding.
Or through lack of spiritual discernment, remain ignorant and call the correctly applied scripture foolishness. But you are accountable for what has been explained to you, that you have withheld from others, and for which you will have no excuse. If you cannot understand this, the above shows the reason why, and tells those who do understand the reason why you think these interpretations are foolish.
If so, you have my pity, but not my compassion.
All signs of the times we are living in. We were warned about such things in Scripture.
And more recently, we were warned about the struggle within the Church specifically. I wonder if what we see now is what we were warned against? Sure looks that way to me.
Fwiw, I wasn’t raised in any of the many denominations of the Protestant religion that worships Christ.
However, almost everyone around me, in all the various places and family situations I grew up in, did claim to belong to one.
In fact, while growing up in the 60s, the first 3 questions I was usually asked in every new place I found myself were in order: “What’s your name?”, “Who’s your daddy?”, and “What church do you go to?”
Sadly, I only had an answer for 1 out of 3. Not good and never the best first impression. Oh well...
Anyway... So now, as an adult observer/seeker, I have answered 2 out of the 3 questions, but I still, after all of these years, have no answer for the last one.
What I find in my search is a family feud in the hearts of many Protestants against the Catholics that to me is both reminiscent of my childhood and also calls to mind a few of the Bible’s brother against brother scenarios.
To which I say, “None for me, thanks. Trying to quit...”
Whatever may have happened in the past, what is most notable to me today in our times is that the Catholics don’t appear to have a war, but it is the Protestants who bring war with them. Especially now.
As an observer/seeker, I look for signs of the “bigger picture”, while studiously avoiding this confrontation. It leads to the darkness that spawned it.
I grew up in this. I see it all around me now, especially in politics and religion. Satan is the master of divisions and then stirring up conflicts between them.
Blessed be the peacemakers.
Nowadays, all we have to do is just choose which one of the many Bibles and denominations we like best.
Easy, right?
Good one! Inoculated it is.
Are you seeking the truth or what you like best? So far you appear to like best the heresies regarding Mary the Mother of Jesus. Wide is the road and broad is the gate ... tou are in large company, if that makes you feel better.
It looks to me like the Sabbath is Saturday and that Sunday is the first day of the week.
If that is true, then where in the Bible does it say we can change our sabbath day to any day we like better than the Original?
Yes, blessed are the peacemakers.
My Holy Week prayer for FR is that we all are able to remember Our Lord’s Passion, Death, and Resurrection in our own ways, but together and in peace.
Prayers for peace and good to all.
Yeah... but the fights are entertaining.
I am in enough foul trouble already...
;-)
Here’s wishing you an early Happy Easter!
Much love!
pax
Right back at you, sweetiecakes! ;-)
:-)
Without His resurrection (= justification) the application of His Blood in Heaven (the once-for-all propitiation), the earthly temple and its rituals would have had no meaning.
So, after dying, He had some more details anticipating and establishing the New Covenant yet to accomplish.
"Look at all those beautiful trees in the forest!"
What forest??
You REALLY don't know?
I'd suggest you stay off of FR for a week and just read the NT through.
14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
And upon the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and prolonged his speech until midnight(Acts 20:7).
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I gave order to the churches of Galatia, so also do ye. Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.(I Corinthians 16:1-2).
I am in enough foul trouble already...
Yes; you ARE in trouble!
For latching onto ONE verse and apparently avoiding a LOT more of them!!
"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?... And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?... Do you not know that we shall judge angels?... How much more, things that pertain to this life?.. If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge ? (1 Corinthians 6:1-5).
Many commands of God require the exercise of righteous judgment.
"But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us" (2 Thessalonians 3:6).
"And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother" (2 Thessalonians 3:14,15).
"Teach and exhort these things. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wrangling of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself" (2 Timothy 6:2b-5).
"Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple" (Romans 16:17,18).
All these commands require the careful exercise of righteousness judgment. Do not be deceived by smooth words and flattering speech. Beware of wolves who come to you with a sheep's skin.
We must be careful not to make unqualified judgments. But we must judge appropriately when commanded to do so.
"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (John 7:24).
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