The Methodist mess in St. Louis

Christian Century ^ | 2/27/2019 | William H. Willimon

[P-Marlowe]

“In the four decades I’ve been an ordained leader in the UMC, we have lost 30 percent of our membership. Our response? Spend millions of dollars and hours of work to decide who else we can exclude.”

When you introduce wolves into the flock, should you be surprised when the sheep start to disappear? The church is commanded to keep out the wolves.

[blue-duncan]

“Our response? Spend millions of dollars and hours of work to decide who else we can exclude.”

It has been my sad experience in representing churches opting out of hierarchical denominations, that the denominations don’t really care since the assets of the churches belong to the denominations. They just sell the assets and fund the pensions of the “purple”.

[Gamecock]

Machen tried to fight off the liberals in the old PC US, didn’t work and the OPC was born. Only catch was they lost their grand old churches to the liberals.

Fast forward to the 1960s/70s and the PC US merged with the more conservative old Southern Presbyterians. The PCA was born out of that merger. PCA churches lost their buildings.

The PCA is set up so that the local congregation owns the building, not the denomination. I think that helps keep things in check.

[P-Marlowe]

You would think that the title would go to the people who paid off the mortgage. To me when a denomination makes the congregation responsible for purchasing and maintaining the property, that the title should inure to the purchaser. I think I learned something like that in law school. But the brain cells that held that information back then have left the building.

[blue-duncan]

I have found in negotiating for churches exiting the PCUSA that the PCUSA was more than willing to sell the buildings back to the congregations at a greatly reduced rate than the actual value of the buildings. they recognized that the congregations sacrificed for the location and wanted to have a continuing witness there even if they differed on social and some theological issues.

It was impossible to negotiate with the ECUSA. They would not even consider selling the buildings back to the exiting congregations. They did sell the buildings to Muslims and “Oneness” congregations, but not to evangelical Anglicans.

[hinckley buzzard]

What a very peculiar missive from this disgruntled person. Suppressed anger comes out in weird ways sometimes.

[Albion Wilde]

...a huge problem with mathematics and counting.

That is liberals' main problem, along with scale, proportion, and depth.

[xzins]

2 Greeks and an Italian walk into a bar....

[xzins]

“In the four decades I’ve been an ordained leader in the UMC, we have lost 30 percent of our membership. Our response? Spend millions of dollars and hours of work to decide who else we can exclude.” When you introduce wolves into the flock, should you be surprised when the sheep start to disappear? The church is commanded to keep out the wolves.

It's not liberals who were driven out. It was conservatives. They are everywhere. Had we kept our conservatives and their progeny, we'd be 20 million big or more.

[Albion Wilde]

This is a typical word salad I had come to expect from Methodist clergy before I departed lo these many years ago: not one mention of scripture, holiness, sin, redemption, repentance, salvation. Just a big political screed.

Then again, this guy is one of the UMC elites just decisively smacked down by the ordinary folks in the pews upon whom he sneers. And hallelujah for that.

[Albion Wilde]

little in the 200-year tradition of American Methodism justifies such punitive, exclusionary measures

Uh, he's off by a half century. Francis Asbury, Wesley's bishop, came to America from England in 1771 to start planting Methodist churches.

[sphinx]

In this Special General Conference we have now declared ourselves to be the church of the aged. The average UM is white and 61 years old. Just like me, my church has got too much past and too little future.

Affirming homosexuality is not a good strategy for producing the next generation of little Methodists.

[Albion Wilde]

when you blatantly include openly-practicing same-sex couples...especially in positions of leadership... you are not practicing Christianity. Sure, you practicing some new religion, and maybe it has the veneer of Christianity about it. But... you’ve departed significantly from original intent of Christian teaching.

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
—2 Timothy 3:1-5

[Albion Wilde]

I can find churches near me that preach the gospel. And, they don't have bloated governances that do nothing but waste money and create stress.

Don't know where you live, but here's a start: the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod (LCMS). Intelligent, reverent, scripturally-based, founded in the apostolic faith. (NOT the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - ELCA.) Adjust the link to your zip code:

LCMS church locator

[Albion Wilde]

I've had it with church

See post 74.

[Albion Wilde]

He laments the traditionalists' newfound ability to organize votes on the floor of the conference

Bingo!

[Some Fat Guy in L.A.]

There are a lot of gray areas in Scripture. That homosexual acts are sinful is not one of them. Don’t see how supposedly learned and/or Godly people can be confused about this.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Thanks.... If I need it, I will

[xzins]

What gets me down, blue, is that I am 100% certain that 95% of the bishops on our side of the pond will refuse to enforce these new rules. I had truly been hoping for a split. To just finally get it over with.

My sense is that the denomination has opened the door for church departures meaning any attempt to stand on the “trust clause” is seriously weakened. Their vote says “trust clause be damned; being fair is more important.”

Could you use that to a departing church’s advantage?

[kalee]

The author does not get it. Methodists lost members because of the leftward course taken by the denomination.

As with the libs in ECUSA, denial of workings of the Holy Spirit unless the libs win. I think the Methodist faithful learned lessons from the Episcopalians and Presbyterians and know how to fight this mess.

It’s too bad the churches who would leave won’t get to keep their property. That may hold them in the denomination to continue the fight.