Posted on 08/18/2018 10:09:46 AM PDT by Salvation
The Bible and the Church never praise lying, even when there are good intentions behind the act Msgr. Charles Pope
Is lying always wrong?
Question: We are told not to lie, but the Bible says Rahab the prostitute lied to protect the Jewish spies. The Bible later praises her as being justified for doing this. Does Scripture praise lying, which is a sin? — Tamarah E. Jones, La Plata, Maryland
Answer: No. We should be careful to recall that the Bible records many things that are not praiseworthy. There are murders, rapes, theft, polygamy, adultery and the like. The mere reporting of these behaviors is not approval of them. In many cases, such behavior becomes an object lesson to illustrate what happens when such bad behavior ensues. In other cases, the sinful behavior simply goes unremarked. But silence is not the same as approval.
It is true that Rahab lied. Here is the account of it: “So the king of Jericho sent Rahab the order, ‘Bring out the men who have come to you and entered your house, for they have come to spy out the entire land.’ The woman had taken the two men and hidden them, so she said, ‘True, the men you speak of came to me, but I did not know where they came from. At dark, when it was time to close the gate, they left, and I do not know where they went’” (Jos 2:3-5).
The incident is simply recorded. And while the two Hebrew spies benefit from her lie and even promise her reward for her protection, there is no explicit praise in the text for the lie itself.
Later in the Scriptures there is praise of Rahab, but there is no mention of her lie, only her act of receiving the spies and sending them out by a protected way. Here are those texts: “By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish with the disobedient, for she had received the spies in peace” (Heb 11:31). “And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?” (Jas 2:25).
Hence we should be careful not to say that the Scriptures affirm lying in this matter. There is a care in the sacred text to focus the praise on her overall benevolence, not the lie. St. Augustine affirms this stance: “That therefore which was rewarded in them was, not [her] deceit, but [her] benevolence; benignity of mind, not iniquity of lying” (“To Consentius, Against Lying,” 32).
Thank you. Her older sister just got out of the Coast Guard after nine years, and now Elen is going Tough Enough one better. We’re not anxious (really!) because the recruiter sergeant wouldn’t be sending her to boot camp now if he didn’t thing she was ready. He’ll lose recruiter points if she’s not up to it.
LOL. Tough-chick.
You should learn the difference between profanity and vulgarity.
Since TC used a vulgarity and you stated as fact that she used a profanity then you lied.
The translation from the French into English suggests otherwise. Either way, it cannot be defended. Sad that you should try.
And you discount the obvious separation of Christ's brothers and the Apostles, as differentiated in the text?
That's quite delusory...
John 2:12 after this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.
John 7:3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
John 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.
John 7:10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
John 7, 2-5:
But when the Jewish Festival of Tabernacles was near, Jesus’ brothers said to him, “Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
Just based on the first verse I could see where the “brothers” were some of his twelve disciples, and the “disciples” are the crowds of followers of Christ. But then that would not make sense with the last verse. And recall that in Nazareth most of the folks didn’t believe he was Christ, presumably some of His own family.
It almost seems like the “brothers” were baiting Jesus. And they also were mistaken in him wanting to be a “public figure” - presumably to be the leader of a revolt against the Romans.
As I posted way back, it seems that lying for a strategic/tactical reason against the enemy is not a sin. Just like others have posted, killing an enemy in battle or in self defense is not a sin.
I think the text is clear... His brothers or half-brothers didn’t believe He was the Christ, while the Disciples wouldn’t have been His disciples unless they did believe who He was.
And Jesus did not lie:
JOHN 7:8—DID JESUS LIE TO HIS BROTHERS?
PROBLEM: Jesus’ unbelieving brothers challenged Him to go up to Jerusalem and show Himself openly if He was the Messiah (7:3–4).
Jesus refused, saying, “I am not yet going up to this feast, for My time has not yet fully come” (v. 8). However, only a few verses later Jesus “went up to the feast” (v. 10).
SOLUTION: Jesus did not go up to Jerusalem in the way in which His brothers suggested. They suggested He go and be “known openly” (7:4). But the Scripture explicitly declares that “He also went up to the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret” (7:10).
http://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/John_7.8.php
Actually, Thank YOU!
I’m thinking it’s not a mortal sin to ignore idiots on the internet.
True. If FR had an “ignore” feature ... other than one’s own self control ;-) ...
I think.....love one another should cover it.
And you are the shining example of that?
Yes. I have a sister in law who was in the Marines, as well as two brothers in law, and a Marine nephew who is in Arlington Natl Cemetery by way of Haditha, Iraq.
He is the fat kid who runs his mouth off till someone punches his lights out, then runs to the teacher, now all grown up!
Wow! I’m grateful for the service of all your family members, especially your nephew who made the ultimate sacrifice.
My daughter is supposed to go to weather-forecasting school after boot camp, and then ... anywhere they need the weather predicted.
Good luck to your daughter
Thank you.
Pope is teaching a lie. Just as killing is only conditionally wrong, as is working on the Sabbath, so also is the condemnation of lying.
Like as the Lord responded to those who condemned Him for healing on the Sabbath, "Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?," (Luke 6:9) so here the intent of the Law determines what is right.
Rahab acted consistent with the intent of the Law, to save innocent lives. As did those who lied about the Jews they hid in their hopuses during WW2, while Pope must argue that such should not have deceived the enemy in order to save lives, and thus Pope's judgment would have them killed instead.
A clearer example of sanctioned lying which saved lives is that of the prophet Elisha:
And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the Lord, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.
And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria. And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said, Lord, open the eyes of these men, that they may see. And the Lord opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold, they were in the midst of Samaria.
And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them? And he answered, Thou shalt not smite them: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master. (2 Kings 6:18-22)
Another example of sanctioned lying is that of the Egyptian midwives,.
And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.
Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses. (Exodus 1:15-21)
Here we have women who feared God in not murdering infants, and who likely were able to continue to do so by lying about why they did not.
And rather than punishing the lying midwives, God rewarded them.
In contrast, if a king ordered the abortion of all children in the womb, and a women was asked if he was pregnant, Pope would have the women answer yes.
Then there is deception in warfare:
Howbeit Sisera fled away on his feet to the tent of Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite: for there was peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite. And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Howbeit Sisera fled away on his feet to the tent of Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite: for there was peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite. And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle. And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No.
Then Jael Heber’s wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. (Judges 4:17-21) And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle. And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No. Then Jael Heber’s wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. (Judges 4:17-21)
Now Jonathan and Ahimaaz stayed by En–rogel; for they might not be seen to come into the city: and a wench went and told them; and they went and told king David. Nevertheless a lad saw them, and told Absalom: but they went both of them away quickly, and came to a man’s house in Bahurim, which had a well in his court; whither they went down. And the woman took and spread a covering over the well’s mouth, and spread ground corn thereon; and the thing was not known. And when Absalom’s servants came to the woman to the house, they said, Where is Ahimaaz and Jonathan? And the woman said unto them, They be gone over the brook of water. And when they had sought and could not find them, they returned to Jerusalem. (2 Samuel 17:17-20)
And we also have the deception of David's wife to save his life (before her illicit lie to protect herself):
Saul also sent messengers unto David’s house, to watch him, and to slay him in the morning: and Michal David’s wife told him, saying, If thou save not thy life to night, to morrow thou shalt be slain. So Michal let David down through a window: and he went, and fled, and escaped. And Michal took an image, and laid it in the bed, and put a pillow of goats’ hair for his bolster, and covered it with a cloth. And when Saul sent messengers to take David, she said, He is sick. (1 Samuel 19:11-14)
In addition, we have God sanctioning the plan of a spirit to deceive wicked king Ahab, to achieve the Lord's just purposes:
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth–gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (1 Kings 22:19-23)
The situations in which lying can be sanctioned, due to being consistent with the intent of the law are rare, such as saving one from being murdered. What would be sin would be to not protect someone, as in a murderer asking you where the would-be victims are. Silence would be one alternative, resistance another (which could mean not submitting to valid authorities acting unjustly), but the situations of sanctioned use of violence by a of Christian is also rare. And in some cases, as that of Rahab, sending the evil men on a wild goose chase by lying enabled the people of God top escape.
If your fellow soldiers in a war are marked for destruction by an evil enemy of superior arms, and Pope knows where they are, you better pray the murderers do not ask him.
“Honey, does this dress make my butt look fat?”
Nah, it’s just like Kim Kardashian’s.
Thank you for your excellent post!
Please correct me, as I understand it, the answer of ethical absolutism, ie. “Lying is always wrong and there are no competing norms,” is that the third alternative is always available. Example is that Rahab could have taken the jawbone of an ass and smitten the entire city, if she wanted not to lie. Of course such a thing would not have occurred to her.
So Pope will not tell the murderers anything, and God will give him a way out of his predicament. If he has that kind of faith, and not many do, he will not think of lying to the murderers, but will smite them all hip and thigh.
Unless he is also a pacifist. I know a man who said to me if someone broke into his house to rape his wife and murder his family, that not only would he not lie he would not lift a finger to resist or protect them in any way! You should have seen the look on his wife’s face when he said that!
Nice post.
Of course, Flat Scripture Folks, See and Say Romans, and others cannot see this because they are not able to rightly divide the Word of God, ha I g not taken time to “study to show themselves approved.”
You are patient and this was an act of service.
Thank you.
My son has not left for USAF Officer Training School yet, but he should in a month or two.
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