Posted on 04/19/2018 8:45:00 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
This is a delicate question, as it exposes one of the fundamental differences between the Christian outlook and the Jewish one.
As far as I understand the Christian concept, it runs something like this: Ever since the expulsion of the first man and woman from Eden, the world has been “fallen” and all subsequent human beings have been born inherently sinful, guilty from the moment of birth as a result of the first man’s disobedience of G-d’s commandment not to eat of the ‘Etz haDa‘ath Tov vaRa -- usually translated “the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.” The only way to escape condemnation and eternal damnation for this inherently sinful nature is to accept the blood sacrifice of the Christian savior. In this fashion one can gain salvation, purely as an act of Divine grace, without dessert or merit on the part of the human being.
To my mind, there is a basic flaw in this reasoning. Christians often picture Jews as believing in a dour, harshly judgmental “Old Testament” G-d, despite dozens of statements in Tanach (the proper name for what Christians call the “Old Testament”) expressing G-d’s love of Israel and indeed, all humanity. They juxtapose this to the “loving G-d” of the “New Testament.” This invites the question: What about the billions of human beings who were born and lived their lives without knowing anything whatsoever about the Romans’ execution of a carpenter in Judaea some 2,000 years ago? If G-d is indeed rachum vechanun, “merciful and gracious,” as the Bible asserts (cf. Exodus XXXIV ,6), how could He allow such a state of affairs to go on?
This view of an inherently evil world is often expressed in almost Manichaean terms, with the world dominated by an evil being -- “the Devil,” “Satan,” a “fallen angel” -- in opposition to G-d.
So what, in fact, do Jews believe?
Consider the terms tov and ra, conventionally translated, as I wrote before, as “good” and “evil.” At every stage of the world’s creation, G-d pronounced it tov before proceeding to the next stage. On the creation of mankind, He pronounced it tov me’od (“very good”), and there is no indication thereafter that He changed his mind.
Ra does not actually mean “evil” in the English sense of the word. Some glimmering of its actual meaning can be ascertained from some of the other ways that the root is used. For instance, in Psalms II, 9 King David beseeches G-d to deal with his enemies: Tero‘em beshevet barzel (“You should smash them with an iron rod”), or in Isaiah XXIV, 19 the prophet begins his description of an earthquake: Ra’o hithro‘a‘a ha’aretz ("the Earth is completely shaken”). From these, we can see that it means something like “unstable, broken, dysfunctional” and therefore “bad.”
Human beings come into this world innocent of anything, but possessed of a capacity for good (commonly termed the yetzer hatov) as well as a destructive capacity, commonly termed the yetzer hara. The yetzer hara presents all the physical urges, the needs and wants, of the physical body which, like everything else in the physical realm, is subject to entropy -- that is, it wears out and falls apart. But he is also provided with a soul, whose highest purpose is to control those urges and channel them into positive actions.
To this end, children are provided with parents and other mentors, whose job it is to teach them right from wrong and self-control, so that his soul is capable of taking charge and leading a proper, sanctified life. Until that moment when he is capable of taking over, any “sins” that the child commits are the responsibility of the parent.
So when does a Jewish individual begin to sin? At the age of bar or bath mitzva. These terms mean “son or daughter of the commandments” because on reaching that age, they become subject to the 613 commandments in the Torah, and their parents are no longer responsible for their actions. This landmark occurs when a boy is 13 years old and a girl is 12. One of the most emotional moments of the bar mitzva ceremony comes when the boy’s father pronounces the blessing, baruch sheptarani me‘onsho shel ze (“Blessed is He who has exempted me from this one’s punishment”).
What is the Jewish concept of the satan? Well, we agree with the Christians that he is a mal’ach, conventionally translated “angel,” but there’s nothing “fallen” about him. He works for the same Divine Boss as all the other mal’achim. Think of the satan (the word means “adversary”) as the proctor of an exam. The proctor isn’t actively rooting for you to fail the test; to the contrary, he wants you to pass. But he administers a tough test, to be certain that it tests all your capabilities and that you’ve mastered the material, i.e. the life lessons available from one’s parents and other mentors. If you manage to pass the test, no one is happier than the satan.
Of course, to be constantly consciously aware of one’s actions and to control and channel the yetzer hara requires arduous, exhausting effort; most of us stumble somewhere on the path, which is what the term usually translated “sin,” chet, actually means: “to miss a mark or a target.” For this, there is the process called teshuva, roughly “repentance,” literally “return” to the straight and narrow after having erred and strayed from the path.
Because G-d truly is rachum vechanun, erech apayim verav chesed ve’emeth, notzer chesed la’alafim, mose ‘avon vafesha vachata’a vnaqe (“merciful and gracious, long-suffering, great of kindness and trust, keeping kindness for the thousands, bearing iniquity and transgression and sin, and cleansing.” Exodus ibid.).
“So God can never be angry, because He made everything happen, correct?”
If God made everything happen, then there would be no Free Will, and thus no point to existence. What you said is the direct opposite of what I said in my post.
First of all, of course God can be angry...but not in exactly the same terms as a human being would be, or would even be able to understand. Who am I to decide what God can, or can’t, do or feel?
Second, what God has done is to create a world with normal physical processes, among which are human psychology, both individual and group. He gave us Free Will, meaning that if He fails to intervene in any given situation, normal physical processes will govern. Hence, lions eat antelope, not the other way around. OTOH, if He decides to intervene, then normal processes are pushed aside. Hence, the Jewish people has survived for 3,700 years or so, despite being small in number, stateless for most of the time, and hated...because God said that He would protect the children of Israel (not each individual one, but the people as a whole). Other nations without such protection have disappeared, and fairly quickly, on a regular basis.
Whatever made you think that I said that God made everything happen? I mentioned Free Will several times, not predestination.
Evil is very real from the coarse HUMAN, WORLDLY perspective. Analogies aren’t exact, but they do give insight.
Chabad sometimes describes it thus:
A king hires a harlot to seduce his son, so that the prince will reveal his wisdom in resisting her wiles. The harlot herself, knowing the king’s intention, does not want the prince to submit to temptation.
The harlot originally commissioned by the king subcontracts a second harlot, and the second a third, and so on. As the actual executor of the mission becomes successively further removed from the king, the original intention is lost, and finally the prince is approached by a harlot who has her own intentions in mind, not those of the king, as she attempts to seduce the prince.
bump
“To my mind, there is a basic flaw in this reasoning. Christians often picture Jews as believing in a dour, harshly judgmental “Old Testament” G-d, despite dozens of statements in Tanach (the proper name for what Christians call the “Old Testament”) expressing G-d’s love of Israel and indeed, all humanity. They juxtapose this to the “loving G-d” of the “New Testament.””
No, it was atheists who invented this idea of two different Gods in the Old and New Testament. Christians believe the New Testament God is the same as the God in the Old Testament.
“This invites the question: What about the billions of human beings who were born and lived their lives without knowing anything whatsoever about the Romans’ execution of a carpenter in Judaea some 2,000 years ago? If G-d is indeed rachum vechanun, “merciful and gracious,” as the Bible asserts (cf. Exodus XXXIV ,6), how could He allow such a state of affairs to go on?”
Jesus went and preached to the souls of those who had died already, so God did show mercy and grace to them, and didn’t just “allow such a state of affairs to go on”.
“On the creation of mankind, He pronounced it tov me’od (“very good”), and there is no indication thereafter that He changed his mind.”
Well, sure, except for that time when God FLOODED THE ENTIRE PLANET TO KILL ALL OF HUMANITY, except for one family, because the rest were irredeemably evil. Doesn’t sound like he thought men were “very good” by that time.
“Think of the satan (the word means “adversary”) as the proctor of an exam. The proctor isn’t actively rooting for you to fail the test; to the contrary, he wants you to pass.”
Yet in the Book of Job, Satan clearly is rooting for Job to fail, so this view doesn’t really hold up. God’s curse upon the serpent after the incident in the garden of Eden also strongly suggests that Satan is not simply a faithful servant of God’s like the rest of the angels.
“Satan? He neither cheers the human nor hates the human.”
Hogwash. Satan envies and despises man because we are the pinnacle God’s creation. Even though we were made “lower than the angels”, God has given us dominion (Psalm 8), rather than the angels, of whom Satan was one of the highest. That’s why he was “Johnny On the Spot” in the Garden, to try and throw a wrench in God’s plan by tempting man to sin right from the start.
” To think that something created by God to serve Him could disobey, let alone lead an active revolt, let alone succeed for more than literally a single micro-second...that is blasphemy.”
Then Genesis is full of blasphemy, since Genesis tells us that man was created by God to serve Him and man disobeyed and rebelled.
I have no idea whether Hogg showers.
Hebrews 2: 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
“Then Genesis is full of blasphemy, since Genesis tells us that man was created by God to serve Him and man disobeyed and rebelled.”
Angels were not given Free Will. Angels are, essentially, spiritual robots, which do as they are told (programmed) to do. Some (the higher ranking ones) have more autonomy...but they still cannot revolt. And if, somehow they did, God could wipe them out with a single thought.
The idea of a bad angel - the “Devil” or “Lucifer” or whomever - who revolted and can actually challenge God...THAT is blasphemy, since every being in the universe challenging God simultaneously would lose, totally and quickly.
*Unless* God permitted that revolt. We know that he sometimes permits evils in the interest of a greater good.
The idea that Satan (or indeed any being) can operate or even continue to exist apart from the permissive will of God is not Christianity, but Manichaenism, which is heresy. Christians understand that Satan does exactly, and only, what God permits him to do.
“Angels were not given Free Will. Angels are, essentially, spiritual robots, which do as they are told (programmed) to do.”
Yeah, we’re going to need some citation for that. We can take humans having free will as a given, based on our own experience, but since none of us are angels, you are going to have to establish that they do or do not have free will with testimony from someone who would be in a position to know.
“Some (the higher ranking ones) have more autonomy...but they still cannot revolt. And if, somehow they did, God could wipe them out with a single thought.”
God could also wipe humanity out with a single thought, yet He has not done so. That amply demonstrates that angels not having been destroyed is not sufficient evidence that they cannot or have not rebelled against God.
“The idea of a bad angel - the “Devil” or “Lucifer” or whomever - who revolted and can actually challenge God...THAT is blasphemy...”
If that were blasphemy, then the Bible is a blasphemous document, since Ezekiel chapter 28 talks of a cherub (an angel) who has sinned and been cast out of the mountain of God (heaven).
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. —1 Peter 5:8
As a FReeper (?) taglines: “Denial of Original Sin is the root of all liberalism.” (I would say, leftism.)
Judaism believes perfection in this life is possible - hence the Utopian Fallacy that so many Jews embrace - leading inevitably to leftism (collectivism or communism).
See Tikkun Olam.
False premise: false result.
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