Posted on 04/17/2018 8:56:07 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Have you been burned by a false prophecy? Did you lose your faith when a promised healing never came? Have you had it with flaky teaching in the name of "new revelation"? If so, you are not alone. There are more Charismatic casualties than many of us would care to admit.
But let me start here with an honest confession. My own experience in Pentecostal-Charismatic circles has been far more positive than negative. I have worked with the same leadership team for more than 20 years. I have had the privilege of serving with men and women of integrity all around the world – I'm talking about Pentecostal-Charismatic leaders around the globe.
I was saved in a Pentecostal church in 1971 and transformed by an outpouring of the Spirit in 1982. I was on the front lines of the Brownsville Revival from 1996-2000, and grads from our ministry school are bearing amazing fruit around the world. And while I have seen my share of scandals and false prophecies and leadership abuses and weirdness, it has been the exception far more than the rule.
Sadly, for many others, the opposite has proved true. For them, there is little or nothing good in the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement. They have been hurt or confused or abused, causing some to reject the move of the Spirit today and causing others to lose their faith entirely. My heart breaks over all these Charismatic casualties, and it is high time that we set our house in order.
I recently read a book critiquing the movement, and in my opinion, it was totally over the top in its criticisms.
Putting aside the scriptural errors I found in the book, it painted a terribly caricatured picture, one that was so exaggerated it was hardly recognizable to me. Yet as I read reviews to the book posted by readers, I saw that many of them were adding their hearty Amen. The picture it painted was all too familiar to them.
I'm aware, of course, that every church (or ministry or denomination or leader) has its critics. You can find horror stories everywhere, and if a church or ministry is big enough, you can find lots of negative reports from those who were allegedly burned by that church or ministry. But when you hear the same story over and over again from people from varied backgrounds, you know that something, somewhere is wrong.
When it comes to the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement, there is no shortage of amazing stories of what the Lord is doing in virtually every nation on the planet. This is truly a stunning, Jesus-exalting, multi-generational work of the Holy Spirit. I see no way to deny that for a split second.
Even more importantly, based on Scripture, I find it indisputable that the gifts and power of the Spirit are to continue in operation until Jesus returns.
But that doesn't minimize the damage that has been done in the name of the Spirit, and there are all too many casualties because of unchecked abuses. Out of love for the Lord and love for His people, we need to step higher.
Although my new book, "Playing with Holy Fire", just came out a few days ago, I'm already seeing a pattern in the reviews being posted by readers.
One reader wrote, "Dr. Michael Brown's very timely and balanced work really addressed where I am right now: disillusioned and heartbroken over the abuses of the contemporary church (this goes beyond the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, though it is centered there). Furthermore, he encouraged my heart, showing me that I am not alone, and providing a Biblical way forward."
Another commented on Facebook that reading the book was bringing them healing from the negative experiences they had in our circles. Still another wrote, "As a former cessationist who was a cessationist BECAUSE of the abuse I saw happening in exercising the Holy Spirit's gifts, it concerns me too. Both because these abuses keep a very large section of the church away from desiring and pursuing something God wants them to have, but also because it harms our testimonies among unbelievers. This book will definitely be going to the top of my reading list!"
Other pastors and leaders are saying, "At last! These abuses needed to be addressed."
So, while I rejoice in what the Spirit is doing around the world, I grieve over the many who have been hurt and disillusioned because of human error and human sin and human carelessness. Truly, we have been given much by the Lord. And that means that much will be required of us.
May we walk worthy of the Holy Spirit's high calling. And may the name of Jesus be exalted, not tarnished, by our lives and ministries as Pentecostal and Charismatic believers.
The stakes are way too high to play games.
I’m not a medical professional, but have sen enough people who are godly Christians who have died from awful things and I agree with you.
And as one who is dealing with one of those said awful diseases, thank you for your comments because I’ve heard all the other awful things people have said, virtually accusing me of the same thing.
opening your eyes would help.
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I am a follower of the narrow way of Yeshua.
To see a sycophant, look in the mirror and frown deeply.
Your master loves that, he hates joy.
No. Wrong. Not reworked or same thing with a new cover.
It is Completed. Satisfied. Fulfilled. Expired. Gone.:
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finishedG5055: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost" (Jn. 19:30 AV; Strong's Lexicon Number superscripted).
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Note:
G5055 = τετελεσται tetelestai; verb, perfect tense, passive voice, indicative mode, third person singular
From G5056; to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
Meaning: The covenantal agreement is at this moment expired, never to be reinstituted.
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"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh awayG337 the firstcovenantal agreement, that he may establishinitiate the secondcovenantal agreement" (Heb. 10:9 AV; Strong's Lexicon Number superscripted).
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Note:
G337 = αναιρει anaeeray; verb, present tense, active voice, indicative mode, third person singular
From G303 and (the active of) G138; to take up, that is, adopt; by implication to take away (violently), that is, abolish, murder: - put to death, kill, slay, take away, take up.
Meaning: He completely abolishes the First Covenant
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On the Cross, by the sacrificial atoning death of His Body through the Shedding of His Blood, the God-in-man Jesus of Nazareth completely satisfied the First Covenantal Agreement instituted unilaterally by Jehovah Elohim that was applied to the human race; and utterly removes it from any further consideration, replacing it by instituting a Second Covenant whereby a human may escape eternal death, not by fulfilling the code of laws by never committing a sin; but by instead agreeing to become the sole irreversible vassal and friend of the Jesus of Nazareth, Who had paid the sin-debt with His Blood once for all humans for all time.
The First Covenant is no longer in force, and can never come back again. A man can not ever again buy his freedom from eternal death. He can only obtain it by receiving it as a gift when he permanently places his personal allegiance unreservedly in the Christ of the Bible, alone.
The alternate plan that you have imagined is a twisting of the covenantal nature, and has never been and never will be offered by Jehovah Elohim. Ever.
The reality is that your slated execution is in the offing, and when it happens, you will realize that your imagined dweal never existed.
There is no reworking of the Old First Covenant because it is done, expired, vanished, and no longer exists.
Wherever you got the thought, it is from a lying demonic con artist, IMHO.
The name is Michael Rood, formerly of The Way International.
I keep seeing this typed; but have heard no evidence yet.
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No, not wrong, exactly as Jeremiah stated, and as the false Kehillah (christian church) rejects in total iniquity.
Church = “inherited lies in which there is no profit.”
Nothing of this “church” is anywhere else in the word but the “inherited lies.”
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And you won’t hear it as long as all you listen to is the lovers of the “inherited lies wherein there is no profit.”
You have to pay attention to those whose lives demonstrate the work of the Holy Spirit, and you won’t find them embraced by the “mystery of iniquity” that is in total control of mainstream “christianity.”
Men like the late Ron Wyatt, Nehemia Gordon, and Michael Rood, who love the treasures of the Word. Yehova has revealed the irrefutable proof of the places and events in his word to those that diligently seek them, not to those that love the sweet lies.
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Still scratching back there for “evidence?”
Do you know who Jim and Penny Caldwell are?
What is their claim to fame?
Can we serve crickets for dinner?
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Cohen Gadol Yeshua declared at the end of the Passover sacrifice
The perfect sacrifice is what is finished.
Heb.10 (Subject: the sacrifice)
[1] For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
He removed the imperfect sacrifice of animals that could not take away sin and replaced it with the perfect sacrifice of sinless blood.
Unfortunate that people who claim to have studied the word make such foolish statements as to claim Yehova has taken away his perfect path to righteousness.
Especially when Yeshua and all of the apostles declared that he didn't.
James 1:
[1] James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
[2] My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
[3] Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
[4] But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
[5] If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
[6] But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
[7] For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
[8] A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
[9] Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
[10] But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
[11] For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
[12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
[16] Do not err, my beloved brethren.
[17] Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
[18] Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
[19] Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
[20] For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
[21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
[26] If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
[27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Did Yeshua do away with the Perfect Law of Liberty?
And none of these "Qualified Cessationists" answer the main question...
Where is the basis for their "ceasing of gifts" in the OLD TESTAMENT?
That is the qualifier.
Since no one here has an answer, this will be the last time I will write to anyone about Cessationism, because there are much more problematic issues regarding those who do believe they have the full gifts, but whom many of us believe are being animated by Familiar Spirits and other demonic counterfeits; situations where no Cessationist will be able to deal with, because you don't believe the gifts are for today.
So be it, I'll not be addressing Cessationist concerns after this post again until someone points to an Old Testament scripture outlining Ceasing of some of the Gifts poured out at Pentecost.
As for Peter, you guys are saying that he didn't speak in tongues, though everyone around him DID speak in tongues, and Peter believed wholeheartedly in the gift of tongues when Cornelius and his family spoke in tongues.
What is the difference if Peter or Mary spoke in tongues or not? That's pretty ridiculous for there to be some prejudice against Peter speaking in tongues, when the text indicates all who were in the upper room spoke in tongues (and this is why the spirit looked like "tongues of fire" upon each one of their heads. But you guys say that Peter wasn't there, or was sucking his thumb in fear in a corner, or something? Weird. And stupid, considering that this Cessationist prejudice against many of the gifts of the Spirit could work against you at the time of the False Prophet and the strong Delusion; you could be swept up in Joel's army, the deluded army of fake believers whom God will send against His own people...
You are trying to limit tongues to what your human mind can understand about it. And to do that, you would first have to explain how you understand that God changed all the languages at the Tower of Babel.
After you explain the miracle of the Tower of Babel, you will realize the Lord can do anything He wants with our language and how we speak. Tongues is not too hard for Him to give to Christians now in the 21st century, nor was it too hard to give in the 2nd century.
But no where does it say this gift, or the other gifts of the spirit mentioned above, were going to cease. Nor does it say the reason these gifts might cease.
Nor does it say anything in the OT about why some of what was poured out at Pentecost, as per the Prophet Joel, would be yanked back by God.
But, and this is what is most important for charismatic believers now, but Joel does discuss the army God will "send against His own people".
Now that is quite a prophecy, considering that the NAR consider themselves Joel's Army.
“So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, The crawling locust, The consuming locust, And the chewing locust, My great army which I sent among you."
The problem imradr and others here have (and I shook the dust off my feet with that first one, so I will not be replying to his thread. He cannot hear me or my words about the Gospel, so I am instructed by the Lord to shake the dust off)... nonetheless, the problem these Cessationists have is profound for these Last Days.
1. If they do not believe the gifts are for today, especially prophecy, how are they to discern the counterfeits of these gifts in the NAR?
2. If they do not believe the gifts are for today, and therefore have no discernment about modern day prophecy, how will they discern who the False Prophet is, when he appears?
3. If we cannot distinguish true from false prophecy, again, how will we recognize the False Prophet when his time comes? Or will these Cessationists be so blindsided by what the False Prophet says, that they will suddenly believe the gifts are for today and be swept up in the great Delusion, that God promises He will send?
And, of course, the strong Delusion that God promises in Thes. is confirmed by Isaiah 66.
Unlike this dangerous belief that only some of the Gifts of the Spirit prophesied by the Prophet Joel are extant for today.
Finally... the problem of Joel 2:25... that God is telling us that He is sending an army against His own people... tells you and me that we better be equipped for that day with rapid-fire discernment, words of knowledge, prophesy and tongues, if that is one of the gifts that has been given to you.
For
"the Lord will have to shorten the time for the sake of the elect" and "when the Son of Man returns to the earth, will He still find faith"?
I'm sorry if some of you believe that the gifts are not for today, but there is no Old Testament basis for this belief, and Joel didn't qualify his prophesy but instead said:
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
I'm all ears.
Have at it.
I await your posting something.
How many names do you have at FR?
Just answer the question:
Where in the Old Testament does it say that some of God’s Spirit that will be poured out on His maidservants and manservants will cease...
... where does it say in the OLD TESTAMENT that some of these gifts will be REVOKED at a later time?
If Peter was speaking in tongues at Pentecost, which I believe the text indicates, then it is Cessationists’ burden to prove why this Gift ceased later, based on the Old Testament.
Same way the Lord indicates the “strong Delusion” in Isaiah and then in Thessolonians.
End of story. God always confirms His word and His will and His works.
So prove it and stop with the personal attacks upon my personal character... of which you know nothing.
Attacking someone’s argument is not attacking their character, which as the Lord indicates, is Satan’s domain as “the Accuser of the Brethren”.
This thread is about false charismania. Which I believe is a huge problem and I believe is what Joel 2:25 is about...and the NAR even call themselves “Joel’s Army” as if that were a GOOD THING!!!
But I guess it’s true what people have been saying: it takes someone operating in the gifts of Pentecost to deconstruct the AntiChrist counterfeits of these gifts in the NAR...
P.S. how many names on FR? Whom are you confusing me with? LOL
(LOL again and just answer the questions. Where in the OT does it say some of the Gifts of Pentecost will be rescinded or cease? And who is the “great army that God will send AGAINST HIS OWN PEOPLE? of Joel 2:25?)
You've made a false accusation at me, now see if you can prove it! As one who has a gift from the Spirit, I would not be saying the gifts have ceased to manifest. But I do not broadcast such a gift for it is given for exercising among the believers.
As I discern Kenneth Copeland Iam repulsed with his spectacle and dead soul claiming the name of Christ yet leading sheep to ecumenism that is sourced in the spirit of antichrist.
So, accuser, prove where I have said Peter did not speak in tongues with the rest when they were all seated together. BUT do not deceive anyone by trying to conflate that moment with when Peter arose to address the masses who came in curiosity to see this strange phenomenon, came and heard then everyman Peter's GOSPEL message in their native tongue.
I never said that.
You tried to make it out like i said that when Peter explained that “this was that” that the Prophet Joel had prophesied, that he was speaking in tongues. I referred to the timeframe when Peter spoke to the crowds, but not that he spoke in tongues while preaching what Pentecost was about.
I am not making a character assessment of you, I am trying to make you understand that tongues are not too difficult for the same God who caused the miracle of different languages at the Tower of Babel.
All of these sign gifts of Pentecost are to be exercised in holiness and in order “For the Holy Spirit is the spirit of self control”... and they also do not even mean that one is saved! I rarely deal with anyone who complains about the existence of the Gifts for today; honestly, my focus is on much more problematic issues... such as demonic counterfeits in the NAR church tricking Christians into thinking they are of God.
The slaughter of faith from this movement is abominable. So, forgive me if in any way I have not been clear or offended, I really am not adept in defending that the Gifts are for today... I’m too busy relying upon them for discernment.
5. And then you are left with having to excise much of the NT which discusses the functionality of these gifts in the body.
Not at all. There is no room in an assembly with any kind of manners to pretend to humiliate or debase constituents by challenging them with the presentation of unintelligible, meaningless utterings and mutterings not understandable by man nor authorized by the Holy Ghost, them trying to make sem feel inferior if they cannot "by faith" to force out some kind of translating the meaningless sounds into syntactical, meaningful motern phrases or sentences. Their response is not true faith, it is just compliant gullibility.
6. And then you have to explain which of the gifts ceased, and why these particular gifts needed to be stopped by God.
I don't have to explain anything, except that sign gifts and manifestations meant for the time that the New Testament churches and Scriptures were being formed. Speaking in English is speaking in a tongue new to the first century that conducted business and other ordinary affairs in the Koine Greek dialect throughout the Hellenized Roman-governed world.
I don't have to explain that if one feels sick enough, one goes to a local physician. And if that is not enough, to call ton the local elders for prayer and anointing as a function of the ministry.
I don't have to explain to them that The Holy Spirit will not allow Himself to b used as an impertinent unethical reader and discloser of personal matters, but Satan is glad to help in this.
The need to understand, don, and use every believer's Ephesian armor; to memorize, meditate on, and wisely employ Scriptural precepts and wisdom, and to exercise the never-failing sovereign preference of one above self and others--these are spiritual activities throghout the Age of Grace.
Your snootiness in these matters is not appreciated.
7. And then explain why God would play 'Indian giver' with these gifts, and most importantly for the modern Berean . . .
Today's born-again Christians claiming to imitate the Berean paradigm exercise the same discipline as did those of Paul's day, who were open-minded Bible students who searched the Scriptures daily to validate Paul's nuggets of truth from the TaNaKh. For sure none of these NT synagogue members would even have been thinking about the kind of these Azuza "speaking in tongues" you are trying to force into the Christian experience today. Doubtless the Hellenized Berean Jews were already using the common Greek in their synagogue life. . . . where this 'cessation' of the gifts of Pentecost is spelled out in the Old Testament.
Holy Spirit manifestations of prophesying (=magnifying God; Samuel, Saul, David) and miraculous wisdom (Solomon, Hezekiah) as well as interpretation of visions and foreign languages (Daniel); the unique purpose being signs verifying God's selection of men and women for unique roles in ongoing revelation of His Will. What Joel showed was that this Spiritual guidance was not for just a few instances, but for the whole New Covenant Kingdom of Believer-priests. What you don't seem to grasp is that the new paradigm of outward behavior based on inward metamorphosis is in itself a miraculous freedom from slavery to Sin, and that it results from the engrafting of the Word and practicing the doctrines of the apostles (Acts 2:42). The signs and wonders were done by the apostles (Acts 2:43) as a sign of their selection by the Spirit for unique leadership roles. I see no mention there that every new believer was "gifted" with the same supernatural manifestations other than praising God (ordinary voluntary prophesying)(Acts 2:47) and God-given seeing to the needs of others over one's own surfeit of material goods (agapaoh love)(Acts 2:44,45) with solidarity (Acts 2:46).
Where their in the days immediately after the day of Pentecost do you see any of the new converts speaking Pidgin in a language that they had not ever before assimilated through experience? That new prototype church was NOT focusing on getting the newly regenerated followers to "speak in tongues," at least not the kind of meaningless gibberish that your system ants everyone to exhibit.
Good luck with that.
No luck involved. What is necessary to show spirituality is change in behavior from a sinful lifestyle to a spiritual healthy, holy one. "Ber ye holy, for I Am Holy," saith the LORD--and Simon Peter (Lev.11:44, 19:2, 20:7; Amos3:3; 1 Pet. 1:16). Speaking in your kind of "tongues" isn't a manifestation of instantly-conferred spiritual maturity, the way you and your system propose. Simon Peter, Beloved John, and Paul give the keys to the sanctification achieved by a long commitment to progressive sanctification through discipleship under a teacher's supervision (1 Pet. 2:1-5, esp. v. 2; 1 Jn 2:12-14; Heb. 5:11-14).
When you cease to spew the kind of diatribe and false doctrine at me and others like me, that you have immersed yourself in up to now, and in an unsupported level of volume, Then I'll begin to think that you can claim any kind of spiritual maturity that is prevalent in this forum.
7. The timing of the Holy Spirit baptisms of John the Baptist’s disciples is not the point. The point is Paul preached the baptism of the Holy Spirit to them and they responded by prophesying and speaking in tongues, with joy.
I believe you have missed the real point of this Acts 19:1-6 passage.
(1) The men spoken of had been the disciples of Apollos, not John Baptist.
(2) Apollos had preached salvation by the Crucified Messiah, Christ, and these disciples had become regenerated believers through faith in that effective baic Gospel, whether or not they had heard of the Holy Ghost.
(3) Paul's examination showed that
. . . (a) they were believers, and
. . . (b) Apollos had not/could not have instructed them of the Trinitarian Doctrine, though the effects of it had been conferred on them, as Paul discerned.
(4) Therefore, once their education in it was complete, they could immediately, without further instruction, be inducted into the local church by water baptism, employing the now-understood Trinitarian Symbol in their confirmation. (5) For the purpose of signifying to themselves, to Paul, and to the onlooking fellow Way-followers, The Holy Spirit manifestation fell ON (epi) them all (they already long before had been indwelt by Him, though not aware of it until their education was improved). This was a one-time event, as was the Pentecostal outpouring, and the Gentile acceptance evidenced in Cornelius' family. This kind of outpouring as a sign is no longer needed or given by God for the baptism of properly indoctrinated (catechised) induction rite. Its confirmation by the Acts 19 lesson was enough, once and for ever, no repeat needed.
And then Paul taught that 'All should be ambitious to prophesy".
Ambitious? Seeking to glorify oneself by showing off a "spiritual" external showmanship? is that the way you interpret 1 Cor. 14:12 in the context of the church assembly? If it is, I would not support you in that. Here, a true zeal would be to gain enough familiarity with Scripture and the Apostolic doctrines that allow one to expound the Scriptures faithfully edifying others. Here, the "prophesy" being spoken of is rational expositary preaching that informs the salvation-seeking but unlearned unbeliever, as well as helping the congregated believers in their progress of sanctifying metamorphsis (Rom. 12:2, 6,8,9).
The kind of "prophesy" you've been doing here in this thread so far is not only unhelpful, but it is rather seeking to undo wholesome teaching that has already edified our lurking audience. You need to stop this kind of what appears to be self-seeking behavior, not spiritually uplifting.
(But I suppose you would add to Paul’s teaching on prophesy by saying: "All believers in the first century church should be ambitious to prophesy, but for those of you who came to Christ afterwards, forget about it.")
Now you are twisting what I have said, and attributing irrational, dishonest, and destructive motives to me, attempting to discredit my Scripturally based comments with your unscriptural cant. I rebuke you for it, and ask you to stop this kind of behavior.
8. You missed the point entirely about post-Pentecostal prophesy for the modern or latter day Church.
No, not only have you missed the point, but you have missed the whole boat in that I have already made that point up-thread, both to you and others, and in fuller detail.
You have failed to read and properly credit what I wrote. Prophets in the church do not occupy the "Old Testament office of the Prophet". They can’t. That time is past, the New Covenant is already in force and the Holy Spirit has been poured out “to teach you all things”. The prophecies in the Bible are God’s Word. Church “prophets” cannot add to the Word of God, Scripture is sealed.
My posts have already illustrated this. Your summary here is mostly correct, but it is a bit late in this ongoing ill-informed diatribe you're making. I showed how the words "prophecy" and "prophets" have different definitions and modes of execution according to context, and that once the progressive revelation of God's Entire Will for mankind has been completed and canonized, there is no purpose for more of that kind of occupation.
And your use of "sealed" regarding God's oral and written communication is wrong and unbiblical.
9. I’m not sure what you mean by the Bereans possessing some of God’s progressive revelation. The Word of God does not evolve.
Of course it has. Our God-breathed Writings have been given by the Holy Spirit, portion by portion, in chronologically successive parts for over a millennium and a half, Starting with the accounts in Genesis and in Job, concluded with the final revealed eschatology given by God to the Lord Jesus Christ for the edification of His disciple-servants. To assert that the giving was not progressive would be irrational and asinine. If you are trying to nitpick the manner by which the canon of Scripture was sealed in the first Century, you have to argue with God, who oversaw the whole thing, and Christ foretold how the NT would be written.
I don't know what point you are trying to make here. What do you mean, "nitpick"?
In other words, seeing “how the sausage was made” during the first century sealing of the canon of Scripture does not discredit the fact God organized it all. He is God Almighty. Putting the Bible together wasn’t too difficult for Him.
Your logic or thesis of how Scripture was given or authenticated escapes me. So far, your reply here is just blather.
10. Anointing in the OT for King Saul and the anointing of King David has nothing to do with the pouring out of the free gift of the Holy Spirit upon all mankind at Pentecost. Not sure why you don’t know this.
Your lack of understanding why I used these shows that your perception of how God validates to humans that His Hand is in an operation is very limited. Your whole "charismatic" (falsely so-called) cult of misinterpretation confuses spiritual gifts with spiritual signs.
When God gives a signs, such as
-- Moses' bright face, and
-- Saul ben Kish's prophesying in the Spirit, and -- Samuel's anointing of David, and
-- God's writing in a tongue unknown to Belshazzar, and
-- the prophesying on the day of Pentecost by some of the gathered 120, and
-- the family of Cornelius prophesying in other tongues, and
-- the twelve Ephesian disciples who prophesied in other languages when the Holy Spirit came ON them after they were baptized (The Spirit already being in them on the basis of their faith in Apollos' preaching a Crucified Jesus, both Lord and Messiah), and lastly -- the appearance of the Risen Messiah to His Dearly Beloved John, whom He authorized to notify the churches of the closing of His ages-long program of revelation as to how He deals with mankind;
then we must come to conclusion that God can and has used them to visibly mark a particular phase of a supernatural event:
-- God communicating His Will to Moses in person, face to face (Ex. 34:32-34);
-- God's selection of Saul ben Kish as the first earthly king over Israel (1 Sam. 10:1,6-7.10);
-- God's rejection of Saul as king (1 Sam. 16:14), by
. . . (a) removing the Holy Spirit, and
. . . (b) sending an evil spirit in His place that compelled Saul to sin;
-- God's act of making David the new king by Personally accompanying him for the rest of his life (1 Sam. 16:13);
-- God sending a messenger inform Belshazzar of the end of his kingship and kingdom, thus removing His protection, using the Seer and Prophet Daniel to interpret, a sign never again repeated in human history;
-- God' validation of:
. . . (a) Jesus' ascension to Heaven and propitiation of the Mighty God's righteous wrath by the arrival on earth of the Holy Ghost, and
. . . (b) the initiating of the assembly of Joel's (Joel 2:29-30) and Jesus' (Jn. 14:16, 16:7; Lk. 24:49; Acts 1:5) prophecies of the Holy Ghost taking up residence on the earth for a time (2Thess. 2:6-7);
-- God validating the inclusion of Gentiles as well as Israelites in the New Covenant of Eternal Life and Peace (Mt. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15,16; Lk. 24:47);
-- God validating that one's salvation by faith alone in the person and work of the Crucified, Risen, and Ascended Lord and Messiah Jesus of Nazareth as preached by Apollos, with the Holy Ghost silently taking up residence in the irreversibly committed believer whether or not the Trinitarian doctrine had been preached to him/her; and
-- God validating that all the revelation to and Master Plan for all of His Creation had been given to His Son, for publication in both Heaven and Earth, because it was now but never before written down by John for preservation to all generations, being comprehensive (though not exhaustive in details) such that there is nothing to be added, with the minatory warning not to attempt to take away even one of the smallest consonants ( י = jodh = iota = jot) or vowels (. = chireq = keraiah = dot/tit or tittle) from the written text.
The essence here then that in each of the above signs permanence is not a feature, however short or long the manifestation of a sign persists.
On the other hand, what the Father gives has everlasting permanence. Going back to Genesis 1 and 2, when Jehovah Elohim breathed His spirit into the nostrils of a human made like Them with the masculine gender and a full set of genes, eternality for human DNA began, as well as the programming it was intended to execute. Adam is still in me, but the bios part, having failed will be withdrawn. What ius the primary and permanent gift that God has always offered? It is acknowledging the reality that He is the fount of every good and perfect thing/circumstance, and that eternal life and fellowship with Him can be mine.
The focusing of the "charismatic" cult on attaching permanence to healing without understanding the human body, prophesying without having studied how to apply the Will of God as revealed, oral communication without ever coming in contact with the plain-literal or figurative-literal mechanics of another culture, "knowing" the thoughts of another person by reading his/her mind without permission, predicting future happenings consistently without ever being wrong, all this is a fairy story that the Bible does not support.
All the people who want to claim that "Pentecostal" or "charismatic" or "spirit-filled" only applies to them and not to the Bible students who refute their leanings, are ones that my observations say that uniformly they are misinformed and pooly indoctrinated miracle-seekers that follow after signs, and the signs that follow after them are highly suspect in character and manifestation.
OT anointing means equipping for a specific task, done in the proper order under the OT Law. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is the new universe of the promised Messianic age, that which the OT prophets longed to see but didn’t . . . because our era is "greater" than theirs in the Spirit.
Sounds like Madison Avenue advertisement doctrine to me. Advertise the weakest point of a product: Sears "Weatherbeater" paint. Smoke Kools . . . they satisfy. Camels soothe the "T"-zone. Life insurance. A "charismatic" believer(?) will experience health, wealth, and great sex. Etc. We have a better thing than those believed before the Cross.
Only if you recognize that God's greatest gift is freedom from the power of Sin and Death and separation from God because The Holy Innocent Lamb of God bought it for us with His Shed Blood. You would do well to fixate on this thought. You know nothing about "anointing" and what it means. Jesus is the Anointed One, not you. Or me. 11. The order of water baptism before or after baptism of the Holy Spirit and its gifts doesn’t matter. Why does it matter to you?
It matters to me, because I know what the seven baptisms spoken of in the New Testament (call it eight if one includes ritual cleansing in the mikvah), and clearly you don't seem to. The water baptism induction rite into discipling in the local assembly should never be accorded to anyone who cannot or will not at lest profess to a saving faith in the crucified Christ. And such a professing person is accredited with having the indwelling Holy Spirit Who brings into being and enters one's personal sphere of spiritual at the very moment that The Father, in His Omniscience, determines that a lost slave of the god of this world has been converted by his/her faith tin he preached Gospel of Christ, become child of the Heavenly father both by a new birth and simultaneous adoption as a son, and thus the permanent possession of the Lord Hesus Messiah.
Here's the timetable of the twelve Ephesian disciples whose incorporation into the church there:
1. The mighty servant of The God, Apollos, who knew from careful study of the recognized canon of the Holy Writings thus far progressively revealed to the Jews, that Jesus of Nazareth, crucified some thirty years before, was God's Christ, the One Who had been proclaimed by John Baptist as the Lamb of God Who utterly removed the sin-sick repentant's guilt by His Cross Atonement.
2. This is what he taught to the students of his classes at Ephesus, twelve of whom exercised faith in the Christ of Apollos' teachings, were repentant of their sins, and submitted themselves to the baptism of John, who preached the kingdom of heaven (John did not preach the Kingdom of God). The twelve weresaved on the basis of their faith alone, the only requirement needed for a spiritual rebirth.
3. Until Aquila and Priscilla came to Ephesus, Apollos was not aware at least of the meaning, and most probably not even the incident of the unusual 33 A.D. Pentecostal event. Perhaps in Apollos' synagogue-based training, it was not even discussed, let alone promoted.
4. In any case, subsequent to the new birth of his disciples, as Apollos was getting ready to sail to Corinth, Aquila and Priscilla met him, mended his doctrinal shortcomings to the point that now the brethren of the Ephesian church could commend him to the assembly at Corinth as an able and effective disciple-maker and doctrinal teacher-elder. Clearly, he was not in contacty with his students before he left.
5. Not long after Apollos departed, Paul arrived to Ephesus on the way from he eastern part of Anatolia, and came into conversation with these men. With discernment Paul judged that they had exercised a saving faith, but was probably aware that they were not local church members, though they apparently were themselves congregating themselves together in further study as disciples of the Word. 6. Taking an inventory of their doctrinal maturity, Paul asked of their pneumatology,"Have you received The Holy Ghost . . ." (whether indwelling residence or external manifestations not immediately needed) ". . . since . . ." ('since' here does not mean 'after' but rather 'as' or 'while') ". . . you believed?" (this is aorist tense, active voice, participle).
The sense of this is more accurately and to the point satisfactorily translated:
"Did you obtain the Holy Ghost as you were believing?"
7. Therefore, though they were saved and (water) baptized, the rite cannot have employed the Trinitarian symbol. So, then, for what purpose was their immersion executed? Paul showed them that their rite was satisfactorily conducted as a visible acknowledgement of their sincere faithful genuine repentance that included a belief in Jesus Christ, a prerequisite to receive John's baptism, as well as for it to be administered by Apollos. 8. Therefore, God's gift to them was the Indwelling Holy Spirit, never to depart from any of them.
9. Then Paul laid his hands on them as ordaining their reception into the church at Ephesus, but (probably unexpectedly) The Holy Ghost also came ON them (being already IN them) that validates the principle that their salvific experience could not be mistakenly attributed to or requiring a knowledge of The Holy Spirit, but rather on Christ alone.
But to address what I think you would like us to suppose, this vignette is not for us to conclude that these disciples were "baptized in the Spirit," or that they were getting the ability to utter languages in which they had no training, or that they were being given a gift of seeing into the future, or to use the sacred desk for propagating doctrines they have not gained through being disciples of a spiritual teacher, commended for his maturity.
To present it with the slant you put on it does not seem at all to be te correct interpretation of the event. This manifestation of the Spirit in the time ofthe formation of the New Testament Canon is a sign, given once for the validating of sole fide understanding of how God saves, not an example of post-salvation Spiurit baptism.
The thief on the Cross with Christ was not baptized, but went to heaven. This proves our God mets us where we are at, even if we are hanging on a cross, slowly suffocating to death by crucifixion.
The thief here was saved here as everywhere in the Bible, by unreserved repentant belief in the messiah, but as one of the very last under the OT provisions where he did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, and so went to the Paradise compartment of Hell, and met his Lord Jesus there, at the moment three days before Jesus arose and ascended to Heaven, taking the Paradise and its residents to heaven to be with Him there forever. The rest of what you said, while true, does not advance your ill-conceived theological propositions.
2. The bolding of the verses in Acts regarding John the Baptist’s disciples not knowing that they needed the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and then how they prophesied and spoke in tongues is a model for modern day Christians.
Totally false interpretation, fitting neither the local context notr the overall message of Bible salvation and sanctification. You need to toss your eisegetic approach to this passage. Note Paul added no qualifier:
Hey, you Christians who are born after all of us first-hand witnesses of Christ have died, let me warn you: if you try this baptism of the Holy Spirit yourselves, don’t count on prophesying or speaking in tongues, that’s only for us. You just aren’t special, and don’t forget it."
This is a gross interpretive error and misrepresentation of the lesson to be taken away from this passage. Another example of misusing of a sign by interpreting the incident to be one of God bestowing some kind of spiritual permanent giftedness to be an ongoing supernatural experience for all "truly faithful" believers. This is a blatant effort to obtain an unreasoned confidence of "something-for-nothing" gullible listener.
13. The gifts did not cease. What "ceased" is the belief that the gifts are for today because of false teachings and rank unbelief of Cessationism, probably because believing in the supernatural or the Devil offends people’s pride.
What you are calling "gifts" here are not gifts. They are signs used in a time to authenticate the introduction of the New Covenant Apostles and Prophets whose doctrines, historical accounts, and inspired words were inscripturated. When the Canon was emplaced, the genuine signs and wonders employed while God's revelation was still being unfolded were no longer operating, and they passed through lack of use, as prophesied not only by Paul in his epistle to the divisive Corinthian disciples still following Apollos' teachings rather than those of the genuine Apostles.
You do know, don't you, that 1 Corinthians was written by Paul from Ephesus to undo the damage Apollos was bringing there, don't you? In a way, your doctrine is still falling in the class of misinterpretation, and it is creating the same type of divisiveness in today's churches that Paul was hearing from Chloe in his day? And that the solution is to focus on the unity brought about same-mindedness and love of the doctrine of the Apostles as found in the Word?
Assuming the gifts aren’t for today doesn’t make it so, and certainly didn’t make it so in the first century.
Again, redefining temporary authenticating visible signs as being permanent "gifts" when they are not.
Cessationism is equal to the heresy of the charismatic NAR and their counterfeits, and equal in its wounding of the sheep.
What your approach is doing is not merely wounding your converts, but disabling them from maturing into true Spirit-led preservtion of as much of the Father's earthly resources as he entrusts the believers.
We are not to despise prophecies nor quench the Holy Spirit of God, but instead to be Bereans:
"test the spirits, my beloved, for not every spirit comes from God... (for) the spirit of antichrist, which you have heard is coming, is already in the world . . ."
Dear FRiend, that is not a quote addressed to Berean Bible scholars, You've misquoted and misattributed a warning from John to his disciples. And it is one that can be applied here. Your doctrine is false, and I have not heard yet that it focuses on the Gifts of His Son, and of another Comforter of the same kind, the Indwelling Holy Ghost. both of whom are greater than any of the signs given to the early churches, but not for today when a far greater gift of spiritual mature discernment is needed.
Like Thomas, you need signs to believe and tell others the same. A true believer no longer needs signs to believe. He/she looks to the Scripture sees the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost in its pages, and acts on it, allowing God to govern the results.
Another thing you can do to become more credible is to stop misquoting, mis attribting reading the minds of, and assigning false motives to the fellow contributors who disagree with you. I see that you relyon your own opinion rather than opening the Scriptures and looking at things from God's point of view. You'll get along better if you revise yourstyle in that area., IMHO.
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