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To: Salvation
Are you saying that you don’t believe Christ’s actions in the Bible when he pronounced Peter as the head of the Church and gave him the keys to the kingdom?

No; we do NOT believe what your chosen religion now teaches about what is PLAINLY written in the book it produced!!


Why don't you guys 'believe' what your own ECFs have written??

GOD knows it's been SHOWN to you enough times on FR!!


 As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the following Early Church Fathers promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:

 • Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:

'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.

Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].

Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:

'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455

Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:

Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)

Cyril of Alexandria:

When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.

Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):

“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'

“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)

Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II):

Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.

175 posted on 01/13/2018 4:08:50 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Why don't you guys 'believe' what your own ECFs have written [about the matter of Peter]??

First, one point that seems to be glossed over here is that the ECF's you quoted are clearly not disputing the fact that Jesus is "building a church". I implore you or anyone reading this to dwell on that point a minute. His church is going to be built on something, and that "something" is not just Jesus Christ. That's clear even from what you quoted. Even if it's going to be built on just Peter's confession (and not also on Peter the man, more on that in a minute), Peter's confession is not Jesus. So let that sink in for a second. Jesus is building His church on something more than just Himself.

Secondly, more focused on the point of "Peter's confession" as the basis of the Church's construction: the Catholic Catechism itself says this as I've seen, if not you, at least someone else on these threads point out. Now I would think someone who at least wishes to think of himself as "thoughtful" would wonder: "Why did the Catholic Church do this in their catechism? I thought that Peter was the foundation of their Church, not his confession? Are Catholics crazy?"

That should be the first question but one shouldn't stop there, again if one wishes to think of oneself as "thoughtful". Or at least "intelligent". One should then go to where the Catechism speaks of this matter and see what is said, that would be a good starting place, again, to the thoughtful person.

CCC 555, in part reads, "...Christ, the "living Stone", thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church...." (emphasis added).

So we can see how this notion (of building the church on Peter's confession, as the ECF's you quote below talk about) and the notion of building it on Peter himself are not contradictory. In fact they are complementary. Again, "because of the faith he confessed", Peter himself is the "rock" (or "stone" if you prefer) that Christ builds his Church upon. Both the confession and Peter himself are this "stone", but not that one can separate the confession from the man, as if they are two separate entities. Indeed one (the confession) comes from the other (the man). So to say that Jesus builds His Church on a confession is to say, at least by implication, that it is also built on that same man who issued the confession. It's not "either/or", it's "both/and."

Thirdly, there are other fathers who clearly talk about how Peter (the man) is the foundation Christ chose. "With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).", that's from Cyprian, but there are others here.

I suppose a cynical person may say "so the Catholics pick and choose which ECF to listen to and when, just to fit their agenda". Such cynicism would ignore the point made above that, at least on this matter, the ECF's describe two faces of the same coin so to speak, not that they contradict each other. But also, it would be truly cynicism to say such a thing, to claim it's just "fitting an agenda" to "pick and choose" quotes, because the same could be said of the Protestant's use of ECF quotes.

This actually demonstrates yet again the need for an authoritative body, a teaching authority (itself led by the Holy Spirit), to keep us on track, to remind and inform us of what the true authentic teaching was and is. Or else anyone can claim anything they want about the ECF's (just like can be done with Scripture).

331 posted on 01/14/2018 5:39:18 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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