Posted on 10/17/2017 8:10:47 AM PDT by Salvation
Basilica of St. Paul Outside the Walls, Rome
St. Paul writes this in today’s reading from the Letter to the Romans: “I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes” (Rom 1:16).
“Gospel” here refers to the whole of the New Testament rather than merely the four Gospels. The gospel is the apostolic exhortation, the proclamation of the apostles of what Jesus taught and said and did for our salvation. This proclamation was recorded and collected in the letters of the apostles Paul, Peter, James, John, and Jude, and in what later came to be called the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The gospel is the transformative word of the Lord proclaimed by the apostles in obedience to the command of the Lord,
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age (Matt 28:19-20).
Of these apostles (“sent ones”) Jesus says this:
Very truly I tell you, whoever receives the one I send receives me; and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me (Jn 13:20).
So the gospel is the authoritative and transformative proclamation of the Lord’s word through the apostles in totality. Of this full and received message St. Paul says he is not ashamed, though he has suffered for preaching it; others have suffered and even been killed for it!
Can we say the same? Are we unashamed of the gospel? Sadly, too many people are to some extent ashamed of the gospel. Even among practicing Catholics and clergy, there are too many who promote a compromised, watered-down message rather than boldly, joyfully, and confidently proclaiming the full gospel.
St. Paul says that he is not ashamed of the gospel. What about us? Are we confident and uncompromising in proclaiming the gospel or are we ashamed and fearful? Do we compromise the gospel in order to avoid the scorn of an unbelieving, sin-sick world? Do we stand up without shame and proclaim the truth with love and confidence?
Are we ashamed of the gospel or are we joyful and confident?
This song says, “You should be a witness! Stand up and be a witness for the Lord!”
Would that be the same “Our Father” (we know it as “The Lord’s Prayer”) from the King James Bible that even Catholics use because it’s a much more beautiful translation?
The Our Father from the King James Bible is slightly different from the Lord’s Prayer that Catholics use:
King James version:
Our father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver vs from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever, Amen.
The Lord’s prayer used by Catholics:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Yes, and I’ve been saying it for years!!
Solid Catholic history.
The Holy Spirit is guiding the Church.
• "And most importantly, the same Holy Spirit that inspired Scripture, preserved Scripture. He is still alive and faithful today."
Triple Amen.
Divine Providence acts in the arena of history. Where else could it operate? It operates in the realm of "stuff that actually happened."
I don't know what sort of evidence you could possibly demand, beyond what the Church has historically believed and practiced. Unless you think the guidance of the Holy Spirit has been ----- despite Christ's promise --- negligible.
“I don’t know what sort of evidence you could possibly demand, beyond what the Church has historically believed and practiced. ”
Except the Church didn’t come to believe half of what Rome teaches until hundreds of years after the Apostles walked and talked.
You can search the inspired Scriptures in vain for God’s teachings On those topics and find zip.
You can search for legitimate evidence produced during the lives of the Apostles and find zip.
A hundred, two hundred, and especially three hundred years later, these pagan practices appear, are justified by Rome, and are then declared as Apostolic traditions.
No. Totally false claims mad of pagan cloth.
Never-the-less, your posts defend it all and come up with creative rationalizations to attempt to justify these things.
In the end, there is no actual list of traditions, or you’d have produced it.
That's the problem with Roman Catholicism's claim...that the church has "always believed and practiced."
It has been demonstrated that many of Rome's most cherished beliefs are not found in the NT nor in the early years after the Apostles died.
Jesus does have this to say about traditions. Just because it allowed to happen does not mean it is approved. Traditions are not all bad but they are not all good when they override. Jesus word on this should cause all of us to say ouch.
Traditions and Commandments
Mat 15:1 Some Pharisees and teachers of religious law now arrived from Jerusalem to see Jesus. They asked Him,
Mat 15:2 “Why do Your disciples disobey our age-old tradition? For they ignore our tradition of ceremonial hand washing before they eat.”
Mat 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God?
Mat 15:4 For instance, God says, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’
Mat 15:5 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’
Mat 15:6 In this way, you say they don’t need to honor their parents. And so you cancel the word of God for the sake of your own tradition.
Mat 15:7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote,
Mat 15:8 ‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me.
Mat 15:9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’”
Mark also address traditions and our response should be that hurts........................
Traditions and Commandments
Mar 7:1 One day some Pharisees and teachers of religious law arrived from Jerusalem to see Jesus.
Mar 7:2 They noticed that some of His disciples failed to follow the Jewish ritual of hand washing before eating.
Mar 7:3 (The Jews, especially the Pharisees, do not eat until they have poured water over their cupped hands, as required by their ancient traditions.
Mar 7:4 Similarly, they don’t eat anything from the market until they immerse their hands in water. This is but one of many traditions they have clung to—such as their ceremonial washing of cups, pitchers, and kettles [and dining couches].)
Mar 7:5 So the Pharisees and teachers of religious law asked Him, “Why don’t Your disciples follow our age-old tradition? They eat without first performing the hand-washing ceremony.”
Mar 7:6 Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me.
Mar 7:7 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.’
Mar 7:8 For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”
Mar 7:9 Then He said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.
Mar 7:10 For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’
Mar 7:11 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’
Mar 7:12 In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents.
Mar 7:13 And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.”
I don't find the word "model" in the scriptures. Matthew uses οὕτως(thus, so, in this manner). Luke uses λέγω (say, speak). Did the Messiah give the apostles another prayer when they asked Him to teach them to pray ?
Do you honestly think when the disciples prayed this is the only prayer they offered????
Jesus Himself, when praying in the garden, spoke directly to the Father what was on His mind and in His heart.
Paul told the Philippians to make their requests known to God (Phil 4:6)....not just recite the Lord's Prayer and be done.
Prayer is not rote recitation of a prayer like the Lord's Prayer/Our Father.
It's talking and listening to God. Imagine the awesome privilege we have to be able to come before God and talk to Him....and He listens and hears our prayers. And He will answer. (1 John 5:13-15)
And to aid our prayers He has given us the Holy Spirit who Himself intercedes for us and searches our hearts(Rms 8:26-27).
Why would any believer not avail themselves of this awesome privilege?
It can't get any better than that!
>>I don't think anyone disputes there are saints in Heaven. <<
Do you agree that Mary, the mother of "God with us" in heaven ?
I believe anyone who is a follower of Christ is in Heaven after they depart this earth. However, those believers cannot hear us nor we hear them.
As much as I'd like to talk to my mom and dad who have both died....I know I can't. But I do believe I will see them again one day as they were followers of Christ as I.
As an example... How Greek gods were in charge of different areas, later adopted by Rome when they conquered Greece and then codified into Church teaching, but "gods" eliminated and saints substituted.
Which god saint will you pray to today? Depends on the favor you need!
I. CULT OF THE TWELVE OLYMPIAN GODSAPHRODITE The goddess of love, marriage and procreation. She had shrines throughout Grreece, the most famous of which were those of Cythera, Corinth and Cyprus.
APOLLO The god of music and prophecy. His chief shrines were the island of Delos and the Oracles of Delphi and Dindyma.
ARES The god of war. Worshipped primarily in times of war, he also reputedly had important cults in Aetolia and Thesprotia in north-western Greece.
ARTEMIS The goddess of the wilds, maidens and childbirth. Her main cult centre was perhaps Calydon in Aetolia, although she was honoured by huntsmen, girls and women throughout Greece. Artemis was also identified with the many-breasted Ephesian goddess of Asia Minor.
ATHENA The goddess of war and the crafts. Most of the ancient acropoli or city-fortresses possessed a shrine dedicated to the goddess as protector of the city. She was also worshipped by craftsmen of all sorts. Her most celebrated cult was at Athens.
DEMETER The goddess of agriculture. She was worshipped in Mysteries throughout the Greek world, the most famous of which were those of Eleusis. Harvest- and fertility-festivals were also celebrated in her honour.
DIONYSUS The god of wine. He had shrines throughout Greece and was celebrated with the grape-harvest and opening of the new wine. His orgiastic Mystery cult was also widely celebrated, and plays were written and performed in his honour. His most famous cult centres were Thebes and neighbouring Mount Cithaeron in Boeotia, and the island of Naxos.
HEPHAESTUS The god of smiths, craftsmen and artisans. He was honoured by craftsmen throughout Greece and had many local festivals, but few large temples or shrines. His most important cult centre was the island of Lemnos, where he was represented as the national god.
HERA The goddess of marriage and queen of the gods. She was the woman's goddess, worshipped throughout Greece. Her main cult centres were those of Argos and the island of Samos. At Olympia she was honoured beside Zeus.
HERMES The god of shepherds, trade and athletics. He was widely worshipped in agora (marketplaces) throughout Greece, and in the Peloponnese by shepherds in the countryside. Fertility statues dedicated to the god called hermae were also erected along the roads. His main cult centre was on Mount Cyllene in Arcadia.
HESTIA The goddess of hearth and home. She was a domestic goddess worshipped at the fireplace. Unlike the other Olympian gods she possessed no great temples, festivals or cult centres, and was rarely representedi n Greek art.
POSEIDON The god of the sea, rivers and horses. His most important cult centre was near Corinth on the Isthmus where the Isthmian games were celebrated in his honour.
ZEUS The king of the gods, and the god of rain, rulership and civilisation in general. He was widely worshipped throughout Greece with numerous hill-top shrines where he was invoked as the rain-god. His main cult centres were Olympia and Nemea where Games were celebrated in his honour, and the Oracle of Dodona in the North.
II. CULTS OF THE MAJOR SECONDARY GODS
ASCLEPIUS The god of medicine and patron of the ancient guild of doctors. His main cult centre was at Epidaurus in the Peloponnese.
CHARITES Goddesses of the graces. Their were widely worshipped in the Boeotian town of Orchomenus and on the island of Cos.
DIOSCURI Twin gods of horsmen, gymnasia and the Games, as well as protectors of sailors. Their cult was centred in the region of Sparta.
EILEITHYIA The goddess of childbirth. She was widely worshipped throughout Greece, with her chief cult centre at Amnisus in Crete.
EROS The god of love. He had dedicated cults in the small towns of Thespiae and Parion on the Hellespont.
HADES The god of the dead. He was usually only honoured at funerals, and indirectly in the Mystery cults. His most important dedicated shrine was the Oracle of the Dead in Thesprotia.
HECATE The goddess of magic and the ghosts of the dead. She was one of the major goddesses of the Eleusinian mysteries, and also possessed small household shrines protecting the entranceways.
HELIUS The god of the sun. His major cult centre was the island of Rhodes, famous for its colossal statue of the god.
HERACLES The great hero of the Greeks. His cult was widespread in ancient Greece, one of the most important of which was the site of his apotheosis on Mount Oeta in northern Greece.
LETO The goddess of motherhood. She was widely worshipped in conjunction with her children Apollo and Artemis.
MUSES The goddesses of music and the arts. Their main cult centres were located on Mount Helicon in Boeotia and Mount Pierus in Macedonia.
PAN The god of shepherds. He possessed numerous shrines in the Arcadian mountains, the most important of which was by Mount Lycaeus.
POTAMI The river-gods. Individual local rivers were worshipped throughout Greece and her colonies.
RHEA CYBELE The mother of the gods. The main culs of the Greek goddess Rhea was near the Cretan town of Gortyn. She was identified with the Phrygian goddess Cybele whose cult was introduced into Greece from the Near East.
TYCHE The goddess of fortune. She was popular goddess in the Greek colonies of Asia Minor where she was worshipped as the patron goddess of a city's good fortune. In art she was often depicted with the accroutements of a city : a turreted crown representing the town walls, a rudder for trade, and a cornucopia for economic prosperity.
III. OTHER GOD AND HERO CULTS
MINOR GODS - Many other gods and nymphs also possessed small shrines and minor festivals. However the scarce amount of information available on these is not sufficent to warrrant a dedicated cult page. These include figures such as Aristaeus, Themis, the Cabeiri, the Horae, the Anemi, the Nereids, etc. Even minor gods, which at first glance one might not expect to see in Greek religion, such as Iris the Rainbow, the hundred-handed Hecatoncheires, and the centaur Chiron, possessed small localised cults. Many others were worshipped only in conjunction with major deities, such as Peitho, the attendant of Aphrodite, and the various Eleusinian demi-gods in the retinue of Demeter.
HEROES - Many of the heroes of myth also possessed hero-shrines and cult in different parts of Greece.
In modern-day Roman Catholicism, Mary is the highest of these demigods. Below God the Father, but hey, his spouse! She has the most pull.
Very similar to the “patron saint” concept.
You have to distinguish between different kinds of tradition. You will note that the Apostle Paul disparages some kinds of tradition, and praises -— insists upon -— other kinds. (He can’t be disparaging and insisting upon the same thing, so there must be two kinds.). The kind called Sacred Tradition has exactly the same origin (the teaching of Our Lord and of His Apostles) whether it is conveyed by preaching , or teaching, or example, or the texts of letters and Gospels.
St Paul taught exactly that: that Sacred Tradition has the same authority whether oral or written:
(2 Thes 2:15)
“Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, whether by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.”
A distinction must always be made between the "traditions of men" of which Jesus disapproved, and the Sacred Tradition which Paul repeatedly insisted we follow.
Say what??
1Then God spoke all these words, saying,...Exodus 20:1 NASB
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NASB
He's been giving us Scripture for a very, very long time.
Paul never gives a blank check, as your post rationalizes.
Further, your post is back to stealing God’s glory by claiming earthly credit for what He sovereignty did.
And your post does this to try to justify the falsehood of traditions equal to God’s Word this n truth and Authority.
It is bad to steal and doubly bad to steal the glory of God.
I suspect the Legend of the Glorious Roman Rooster hasn’t been learned yet...
Where is that Roman Rooster? I had him around here somewhere!
God makes the sun rise.
The rooster crows.
Yet the wise rooster only announces what God has done,
knowing his purpose isn’t to supplant God.
God purposed in eternity past:
The Roman Rooster is a different creature.
The Roman Rooster crows & crows!
And why? It is all written in the scrolls God gave him to read. Yet he claims credit for these while missing their message.
Yet he prefers to crow about traditions of pagan roosters and create idols and wear vestments that glorify himself and his earthly chicken coop as the greatest Coup - The Original Coup.
(2 Thes 2:15) “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, whether by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.”
Problem with this is you are taking this out of context to attempt to justify Rome's theology that developed later.
In 2 and 3 Thessalonians Paul gives us indications of what the traditions are he's referring to.
And these were not the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, indulgences, purgatory, etc.
The other problem for Rome is we only have the written word. Only Scripture is inspired....not "Tradition."
I think they did precisely what the Messiah taught them to do. Giving up Sola Scriptura, going by tradition or speculation, one can reason that they also recited the Shema prayer for example, and not just the first verse of which the Messiah quoted in the Gospels as the Greatest/First commandment.
Jesus teaches them this prayer, which you suggest is possibly one of two they prayed, and Jesus prays to the Father in the Garden something different??
I don't think so. Jesus isn't one to say do something and He do something else.
39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.” Matt 26:39
42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.” Matt 26:42
When Jesus prayed before the crowd prior to raising Lazarus did he offer the Lord's Prayer? No. He made a specific entreaty and prayer of thanksgiving.
Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42“I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” John 11:41-44
Paul had a different prayer as well.
11To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thess 1:11-12
Serious question: Do you ever just talk to God in your own words?
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