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To: ADSUM
Why do some use a quote from the Bible to attempt to justify their comment without understanding (or ignoring) the rest of the teachings of Jesus?...God gave us free will to either accept or reject God and His salvation for us.

The concept of "free will" was deemed heresy at the Council of Orange.

I would also call your attention to the Westminster Confession of Faith:

Luther, Calvin and the rest were only following in the footsteps of what Augustine and the Council of Orange declare-a person is elected into God's family. Christ said, "You did not choose me but I choose you." (John 15:16) The whole Old Testament is dedicated to "a chosen people", a "holy nation".

If you miss this concept it baffled me for 30 years. But it is very clear and with a little bit of review and an open heart it is plainly taught in scripture. We are wicked people who are saved only by God's grace. It is no different than God appearing to Paul on the Damascus Road, God revealing Himself to Moses via a burning bush, God calling to Samuel as he was trying to get some sleep. We are all saved exactly the same way, by God grace. Christ comes up to us, tells us to get up and follow Him, and so we do it. This is NOT of yourself, it is a gift from God. (Eph 2:8-9) This is the reason we pray for the salvation of others. Please consider the most obvious verse of all verses:

The real question is why doesn't God save everyone? That is the mystery but then that is His prerogative.

Luther thought that a sinner who is forgiven is still totally corrupt, unable to get away from sinning constantly.

I'm not sure that is correct. Before Christ we are in bondage to sin. After Christ, Christians no longer practice sin, but they still sin as residue of their old nature (1 John). But despite the poorly worded title in the Westminster Confession, there is no such thing as "free will". There is God's will and there is our will. Our will strives with God's will and God works to bring it into subjection to Him (to the praise of His glory). We don't "freely" do the things of God unless God empowers us to do His will. As Augustine writes, "Command what you will, and grant what you command." As I've asked many times, "If you really, really have a "free will", then why do you sin?" I have yet to get a response to that question. Our sinfulness as Christians is a hold over of our old nature and is evidence of our willful, sinful self as we once were. May God grant us His power to be submissive to His will.

88 posted on 09/03/2017 12:16:41 PM PDT by HarleyD (Ecc 10:2 A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left.)
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To: HarleyD

Luther, Calvin and the rest were only following in the footsteps of what Augustine and the Council of Orange declare-a person is elected into God’s family. Christ said, “You did not choose me but I choose you.” (John 15:16) The whole Old Testament is dedicated to “a chosen people”, a “holy nation”.
If you miss this concept it baffled me for 30 years.

_________________________________________________________

I hate to tell you that you have still missed it.

God has chosen all of us. All are offered the gift, all have the same opportunities. Only those who accept being chosen receive the gift.

If at work you are chosen to participate in a new program that offers a raise in salary but you aren’t willing to move to receive the promotion then you don’t get it. You were chosen but you don’t get the extra pay because you didn’t accept it.


95 posted on 09/03/2017 2:29:24 PM PDT by JAKraig (my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: HarleyD
The Council of Orange was an outgrowth of the controversy between Augustine and Pelagius. This controversy had to do with degree to which a human being is responsible for his or her own salvation, and the role of the grace of God in bringing about salvation.

The Pelagians held that human beings are born in a state of innocence, i.e., that there is no such thing as a sinful nature or original sin. As a result of this view, they held that a state of sinless perfection was achievable in this life. The Council of Orange dealt with the Semi-Pelagian doctrine that the human race, though fallen and possessed of a sinful nature, is still "good" enough to able to lay hold of the grace of God through an act of unredeemed human will.

Conclusion. And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows.

The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God's sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him.

We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God. And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29).

And again, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, "I have obtained mercy to be faithful" (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, "because I was faithful," but "to be faithful."

And again, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17). And again, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul.

We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.

We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him.

We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Councils/Orange.htm

its deliberations bore on the current errors concerning the doctrine of grace and free will, i.e. Semipelagianism. Cæsarius had informed Felix IV (III) of the pernicious activity of the Semipelagians in Gaul and had applied to him for support.

The pope, in response, sent him a series of "Capitula", i.e. propositions or decrees drawn almost in their entirety from the works of St. Augustine and the "Sententiæ" of St. Prosper of Aquitaine. These "Capitula" became the basis of the twenty-five issued by the Synod of Orange, and these in turn were freely used by the Council of Trent in its condemnation of Luther. The acts of the Synod of Orange contain, after a preamble: (a) eight canons or anathematisms; (b) seventeen merely declaratory propositions (both of these classes are known as "Capitula"); (c) a sort of demonstration of the defined doctrine against the objections of the Semipelagians.

The subjects of the "Capitula" are thus logically grouped by Portalié in "Dict. Théol. Cath." (I, 2526). (1) Causes of the necessity of grace. They are: (a) original sin which cannot be wiped out without it (can. ii); (b) the weakness of the will resulting from the fall of man (i); (c) the very condition of creature (xix). (2) Operation of grace before justification. It precedes every effort conducive to salvation. From it proceed: (a) prayer (can. iii); (b) the desire of justification (iv); (c) the inception of faith (v); (d) every effort towards faith (vi); (e) every salutary act (vii); (f) every preparation to justification (viii, xii); (g) all merit (xviii).

(3) Operation of grace in initial justification or baptism. It restores (xiii), justifies (xiv), improves (xv), confers the justice of Christ (xxviii). (4) Work of grace after justification in the just. It is necessary for good actions (ix); perseverance (x); the taking of vows (xi); Christian fortitude (xvii); the life of Christ within us (xxiv); the love of God (xxv). (5) Universal necessity of grace. This need of grace to do good and avoid evil is expressed in propositions ix, xx, and the variously interpreted proposition xxii.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11266b.htm

I think you are misinterpreting the conclusion that we have no free will. Even your statement says so: "There is God's will and there is our will." Canon 7 does not state that there is no free will to choose or reject God. Yes, we must hear and accept the teachings of Jesus. Jesus sent out His Apostles to preach and baptize. Yes, this gift comes from God who wants all of us to join Him in Heaven if we accept Him.

No one has stated (to my knowledge) that God does not help us follow His will. But we can choose to accept or reject by our actions and faith. That should be common sense. Do you not believe that individuals can reject God and His teachings?

Your question? "If you really, really have a "free will", then why do you sin?" I have yet to get a response to that question.

People have choice: Love God or not Love your neighbor as yourself or not Commit murder or not Commit adultery or not Steal or not Covet or not

Our sinfulness is because we want to sin. We must take responsibility for our actions. Humans can easily rationalize their actions.

These are choices and I can see why people can choose either. People are weak and selfish and may not see the big picture (or have faith). Even those that profess faith choose sinful ways for their pleasure. Some can repent, deny themselves and with God's help become holy and ready to join Jesus in heaven.

I know many very intelligent people who do not accept God and think that they are better and more intelligent than God as atheists. I know many on this site that profess faith in God, but seem to ignore or are unwilling to understand the teachings of Jesus. Most are good people and I pray for them, yet I am very concerned that many will not meet God.

96 posted on 09/03/2017 2:51:45 PM PDT by ADSUM
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To: HarleyD
Christ said, "You did not choose me but I choose [SIC; chose] you." (John 15:16) The whole Old Testament is dedicated to "a chosen people", a "holy nation".

Yet He did not say that to just anyone; that was said to the twelve disciples/apostles celebrating Passover with Him (see chapter thirteen). He did choose them, as shown in the Gospels. As for the chosen people, Moses (speaking for the LORD) told the Israelites to choose.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

...

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Deutetonomy, Catholic chapter thirty, Protestant verses nineteen to twenty
Revelation, Catholic chapter twenty two, Protestant verses sixteen to seventeen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

99 posted on 09/03/2017 4:30:39 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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