Posted on 07/26/2017 10:35:48 AM PDT by ebb tide
Sources inside the Vatican suggest that Pope Francis aims to end Pope Benedict XVIs universal permission for priests to say the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), also known as the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. While the course of action would be in tune with Pope Francis repeatedly expressed disdain for the TLM especially among young people, there has been no open discussion of it to date.
Sources in Rome told LifeSite last week that liberal prelates inside the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith were overheard discussing a plan ascribed to the Pope to do away with Pope Benedicts famous document that gave priests freedom to offer the ancient rite of the Mass.
Catholic traditionalists have just celebrated the tenth anniversary of the document, Summorum Pontificum. Pope Benedict XVI issued it in 2007, giving all Latin Rite priests permission to offer the TLM without seeking permission of their bishops, undoing a restriction placed on priests after the Second Vatican Council.
The motu proprio outraged liberal bishops as it stripped them of the power to forbid the TLM, as many did. Previously priests needed their bishops permission to offer the TLM.
Additionally, Summorum Pontificum stated that wherever a group of the faithful request the TLM, the parish priests should willingly agree to their request.
The overheard plans are nearly identical to comments from an important Italian liturgist in an interview published by Frances La Croix earlier this month. Andrea Grillo a lay professor at the Pontifical Athenaeum of St Anselmo in Rome, billed by La Croix as close to the Pope, is intimately familiar Summorum Pontificum. Grillo in fact published a book against Summorum Pontificum before the papal document was even released.
Grillo told La Croix that Francis is considering abolishing Summorum Pontificum. According to Grillo, once the Vatican erects the Society of Saint Pius X as a Personal Prelature, the Roman Rite will be preserved only within this structure. "But [Francis] will not do this as long as Benedict XVI is alive.
The plan, as related to LifeSite, involved making an agreement with the Society of St. Pius X and, with that agreement in place, sequestering those Catholics wanting the TLM to the SSPX. For most, that would strip them of access to the TLM since there would not be nearly enough SSPX priests to service Catholics wanting the TLM worldwide.
Moreover, LifeSites source suggested that the plan may explain a May 20, 2017 letter by the recently ousted Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, Cardinal Gerhard Müller. Even though Cardinal Müller wanted the SSPX fully reconciled to help fight modernists in the Church, the May 20 letter seemed to scuttle an agreement between Pope Francis and the SSPX which would see them get a personal prelature. The letter includes provisions long known to be completely unacceptable to the SSPX, thus nullifying an understanding SSPX leader Bishop Bernard Fellay believed was imminent.
The LifeSite source suggested that the May 20 letter by Muller perhaps was written because he knows what Francis was up to and wanted to avoid the plan to bury Summorum Pontificum with Pope Benedict. Its directed not so much against Fellay but against the agreement, said the source. Pope Francis was very angry that document came out from Cardinal Muller and some say thats why he made the decision to dismiss him.
Only a truly ignorant person says there is “no proof” when he has simply not examined the proof.
I know where you could start, if you were interested. The first-generation disciples of the Apostles would be good. We are privileged in this 21st century that they are mostly all online and in adequate translations, meaning they are far more available to us then they were to, say, Aquinas, or than they have been in all of human history.
Let me suggest you start with St. John’s disciple Polycarp, and Ignatius of Antioch.
God be the source, the path, and the destination of your search.
Well, it’s in 3 of the 4 Gospels. That should count.
It was the basis of your argument.
I'll let the "ignorant thing pass."
I'll address your other claim.
1. I specifically asked you for proof a number of years ago. I've made the same request of others here. You failed to demonstrate the practices before 100 ad. If I remember the conversation correctly, you did dig up things from the catacombs hundreds of years after Christ. No unbroken chain of custody as you claim.
2. I've read thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of church history as part of my seminary training. What you claim is not there. It is perhaps a cherished belief you hold dear, but it isn't there. Not in Christian literature, not in Scripture, not in secular writings or art before 100 ad.
You are precisely, 180 degrees wrong. My argument , because it is in defense of the selection made in the texts of the Tridentine Mass, is that a valid, meaningful, honest, representative selection CAN, and HAS been made.
You didn’t catch that I was defending the Scriptural integrity of the liturgical text??
But any “selection” is selective -— by definition, it is not the whole.
I realize you hold that view. It is not representative, since it leaves out the Gospel and adds to it, distorting it.
Meant for a different thread.
What denomination are you?
It was intended for the Moochelle thread.
The Mass NEVER leaves out the Gospel (seriously, aMPU, have you ever been to Mass?) -— and as for “adding “ to it, have you no use for a song or a sermon? Or are these to be abolished, because they “add to,” the Gospel?
But it fit in here so perfectly!
Awesome! I was resistant to it at first, but now we go almost exclusively. It has really deepened my faith.
It can be a little confusing in the beginning because it’s not just the language barrier but the whole focus of the rite is different.
But I wouldn’t go back now for anything. :)
Christian.....just as the disciples were called at Antioch.
_______________
The current Mass.....in the Gospels.....nope.
“The Mass NEVER leaves out the Gospel (seriously, aMPU, have you ever been to Mass?) - and as for adding to it, have you no use for a song or a sermon? Or are these to be abolished, because they add to, the Gospel?”
As a Former Catholic who came to know Christ, and a former (unmolested) alter boy, I’ve heard a great many masses. In addition, weddings and funerals.
It always leaves out the whole Gospel.
As for adding, I did not refer to music.
Best
Weak argument from a lack of evidence. Where is the proof that there was a change?
If we see that the Roman Church, the Corinthian Church, the Alexandrian Church, the Antiochene Church, the Church of Jerusalem, *all kept communion with one another*, then the presumption must be that they held fundamental doctrines in common. We know from the Quartodeciman controversy in the mid-100s that there *were* disagreements, but of course these disagreements had nothing to do with the doctrines that you see as innovations. That's telling.
If Rome had gone off the rails from Apostolic teaching, why didn't Antioch call it out on it? If Rome became heretical, how come Alexandria and Carthage still kept communion with it? Did the whole Christian world become heretics all at once? Were there no voices, NOT ONE raised against this supposed shift in doctrine?
Point me to a historical source that says "Rome innovated and did X, and we register our disagreement". And further that such innovation was from an originally "Protestant" position. Go ahead. Find me one.
Francis put on a political show south of our border, and called it a mass. Were Jesus in Francis work Hillry Clinton would be president.
Francis put on a political show south of our border, and called it a mass. Were Jesus in Francis's work Hillry Clinton would be president.
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