Pope Francis meets with Rev. Jens-Martin Kruse at Rome’s Evangelical Lutheran Church on Nov. 15 2016
Posted on 06/23/2017 9:12:09 AM PDT by ebb tide
Pope Francis meets with Rev. Jens-Martin Kruse at Rome’s Evangelical Lutheran Church on Nov. 15 2016
The commission consists of representatives from all three denominations, all bound to secrecy.
The journalist, who is well known in Italy for his accurate reporting of all things happening in the Vatican, has said that while this news is merely a “rumor” at this point, his “sources are usually good.”
According to his sources, the commission is finding little difficulty in finding common ground in the “liturgy of the word”. Tosatti reports: “After the confession of sins, asking for forgiveness, and reciting the Gloria, there would be the readings and the Gospel.”
He also said that the commission is allegedly studying the problem of the Creed. Protestant churches prefer to pray the Apostles’ Creed, although they do recognize the Nicene Creed. The Catholic Church alternates between them. So not even this point should be a major problem.
The presentation of the gifts likewise does not present a major obstacle to the project.
According to Tosatti, the central issue lies in the Eucharist, since the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist is profoundly different from that of the Lutherans or of other Protestant denominations. Catholics believe in Transubstantiation and the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, while Protestants believe that it is merely a memorial.
Tosatti reports that a possible “solution” being proposed is that the words of Consecration be replaced by silence:
But how can a common liturgy be celebrated that clearly differs in the wording right at the most important point of the event?
One of the proposed possible solutions would be silence. It would mean that after the Sanctus, at the moment in which normally during the Mass the priest would say the words: “Father, you are holy indeed…” the different celebrants would keep silent, everyone mentally repeating “his own” formula.
The silence is broken in the congregation with the recitation of the Our Father. It is still not clear how the lines for Communion would be formed.
In light of this well-founded rumor, we should take heed of the remarks of Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio, a close collaborator of Pope Francis and currently the President of the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. The Vatican cardinal has suggested that we stop thinking of sacraments so rigidly as only either valid or invalid. For the sake of ecumenism, he opined that we should start looking into sacraments perhaps having “imperfect” or “partial” validity. Below are his exact words, as published in his exclusive interview with Edward Pentin of the National Catholic Register:
We say, everything is valid; nothing is valid. Maybe we have to reflect on this concept of validity or invalidity. The Second Vatican Council said there is a true communion [between Catholics and Protestants] even if it is not yet definitive or full. You see, they made a concept not so decisive, either all or nothing. There’s a communion that is already good, but some elements are missing. But, if you say some things are missing and that therefore there is nothing, you err. There are pieces missing, but there is already a communion, but it is not full communion. The same thing can be said, or something similar, of the validity or invalidity of ordination. I said let’s think about it. It’s a hypothesis. Maybe there is something, or maybe there’s nothing — a study, a reflection. ∎
by John Supplers, Veritas Vincit
I can't even begin to imagine the pain that Catholics experienced when the novus ordo was rammed down their throats.The empty pews say it all, FRiend. Pax.
"I conclude that if you forgive, you will be forgiven. If not, not."
This is what Jesus said:
Matthew 6:14-15
If you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
You say my conclusion is at odds with what Jesus says. I say my conclusion is the same as His.
Why don't you ask a Catholic pope?
10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: "The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly."[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that "this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills."[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24] Pope Pius ; MORTALIUM ANIMOS
MORTALIUM ANIMOS
What about the spouses praying together? Forbidden?
This article is about ecumenical Masses; not about mixed marriages.
I want to know why you are defending ecumenical “masses”. Stay on topic.
Mary was created. Jesus Christ has always been and He is not a creation. It even explains in the Scriptures that all things were created by Him and for Him. How could Mary be the mother of god? She is not the mother of God, only the mother of the man who was Jesus...God brought to us in flesh. However blessed among all women. Jesus had to be flesh to be our sacrifice otherwise there could have been no crucifixion (Hebrews 7 gives insight on this).
“For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5)
"It's a sin for a Catholic to worship alongside heretics."
So I was asking for a clarification of your personal view, as applied to canonically permitted mixed marriages.
(2)You ask, "why [are] you are defending ecumenical “masses”?
I did not defend ecumenical masses.
“Celibate male...”
You’re slipping. You left out “wearing dresses.” Oh. And you forgot “altar-boy-raping...”
The Bible.
Written by Catholics.
But what do they know?
The people who think their salvation depends on what they do are.
Are you aware of the concept of the Judgment seat of Christ where BELIEVERS who already have eternal life give an account of their lives?
If we don't forgive, there will be an accounting, but not to the loss of salvation, but the loss of rewards.
JESUS had a mother. GOD does not.
The Holy Spirit called Mary “the mother of Jesus”, not “the mother of God.”
Or are you going to accuse Him too, of not believing in the deity of Christ?
Considering how far they've drifted from what they claim they wrote, not much.
Are you saying some of the saved are unforgiven? Some of the unforgiven are saved?
So are you claiming, Jesus is not God?
Make up your mind; I haven't gotten a "yes" or "no" answer out you yet.
Perhaps in rash judgement, you missed the "s" in "heretics"?
I was never referring to mixed marrriages.
Yeah those OT guys were really Roman Catholic. /sarc
Although you are correct that this is not the topic of the OP, you will find that Church teaching regarding these mixed unions was very different pre-Vatican II....I know you are surprised to hear that. ;-)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09698a.htm
A Nuptial Mass for these unions would have been unheard of.
It will be kept, but not in the churches and cathedrals, not by the bishops. Underground?
Second, your personal view, quoted at the top: "It's a sin for a Catholic to worship alongside heretics", was a very general statement which did not hint at any exceptions. Now I see that you would countenance an exception: mixed marriages. Any others?
Thank you for that clarification.
What about a Catholic praying and worshiping God at the bedside of a dying veteran at the VA hospital, for instance? Or a Protestant praying at the bedside of a dying Catholic vet?
I ask this because I am a volunteer to sit with the dying at the VA Hospice here, and I see it pretty frequently. None of this is the same as an "ecum4nical Mass," whatever that is. I would think that would be troubling to the theological principles of everyone all 'round.
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