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To: metmom
I didn't reference the ancient liturgies in order to recommend that you pray them. Although that wouldn't be a bad idea. I referenced them in order for you to see some of the *content* of Christians' public prayers in the 3rd, 4th centuries and rooted, of course, even earlier, in the synagogue prayers (Jewish) with which they or their parents and grandparents were so familiar.

(Per coincidence: just yesterday, honestly, one of my Jewish friends remarked to me in an email that so many of the prayers of the Mass, particularly the Latin Mass, were straight translations from the Aramaic. I smiled. Good to know, Steve.)

What you would notice, since you are an intelligent observer like Steve, would be that the liturgies --- whether Latin, Greek, Slavonic, Syriac, Russian, Armenian, etc --- are packed with Hebrew and Aramaic expression, rich with verbatim Scripture, and replete with the awareness that the angels and saints in heaven are praying with us.

It's been said (by me!) that wherever Western Christianity has two sentences of doctrine, the Byzantines will have 30 verses of (sung) poetry. (You can see why I love and esteem those weirdo beardos.). Sure enough, the Assyrian Church of the East, as well as the Catholic Chaldeans, praise Mary as "Second Heaven" (because within her He chose to dwell) as well as "Ever-Virgin". This is true throughout Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy as well.

You would notice also references to Mary the Mother of the Messiah as Panagia and Theotokos as well as Aeiparthenos.

This was true throughout all Christian lands and peoples, until some hotshot modernist German theologians, circa 16th-17th century, acted on the assumption that they understood Syriac sacred texts better than the Syrians, Aramaic better than the people of Aram, and Greek better than the Greeks.

I'm bound to say I find the testimony of the ancients more convincing.

171 posted on 06/13/2017 7:34:29 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (The Church of the Living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15))
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I'm bound to say I find the testimony of the ancients more convincing.
You might add when it agrees with the RCC.
173 posted on 06/13/2017 8:29:03 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Operation Covfefe is now in effect.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Those in heaven may well be praying with us and for us, but that still does not give us license to violate God’s prohibition against communicating with or contacting those who have passed on from this earthly life.


176 posted on 06/13/2017 8:42:02 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I'm bound to say I find the testimony of the ancients more convincing.

Like is found in replies #133 and #139?

198 posted on 06/13/2017 11:48:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I'm bound to say I find the testimony of the ancients more convincing.

I'm not convinced that the testimony of fifty billion flies assures me that food once good but now rotted would make me a healthy meal.

In like manner, Paul confounds your sort of "(il)logic":

=======

"Though I might also have confidence in the flesh.
If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
o Circumcised the eighth day,
o of the stock of Israel,
o of the tribe of Benjamin,
o an Hebrew of the Hebrews;
o as touching the law, a Pharisee;
o Concerning zeal, persecuting the church;
o touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge
of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
and do count them but

dung

that I may win Christ, And be found in him, . . . "

(Php. 3:4-9a, after the AV)

221 posted on 06/13/2017 1:19:21 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; metmom
You would notice also references to Mary the Mother of the Messiah as Panagia and Theotokos as well as Aeiparthenos. This was true throughout all Christian lands and peoples, until some hotshot modernist German theologians, circa 16th-17th century, acted on the assumption that they understood Syriac sacred texts better than the Syrians, Aramaic better than the people of Aram, and Greek better than the Greeks.

Careful now...most of those "modernist German theologians circa 16-17th century" (we know to whom you are referring), actually didn't dispute the "ever-virgin" dogma of Mary. After all, they came from being steeped in Roman Catholic theology. It became less and less a doctrine they emphasized or taught seeing as it lacked any Scriptural basis.

240 posted on 06/13/2017 6:33:16 PM PDT by boatbums (Authority has a way of descending to certitude, and certitude begets hubris.)
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