Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

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[Elsie]

If you can lose salvation....how do you know you've lost it?

Perhaps a clue.

[Elsie]

Bears repeating: LOUDLY!!!

If our works keep us saved it's the same as saying we are saved BY our works.

[Elsie]

Series, huge and risky; too!

[ealgeone]

That’s a little late to find out don’t ya think?

[Zuriel]

By your quotes you show how faith overcomes the world:

**2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.**

John was addressing people that were already born again; converts of Jesus Christ, just like him:

“And hereby WE do know that WE know him, if WE keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” John 2:3,4

Another good confirmation of who he’s writing to:

“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” John 2:24-27

There is no separation of faith in Christ, and faith in his commandments. If we believe in Jesus Christ, we believe his words; even believing in him through “their” (the apostles) word (John 17:20).

The Israelites shed the Passover blood, putting it on the doorways of their homes (a physical act that was a confession of faith), and were spared. But their final separation, from the curse of death by the Egyptians, didn’t happen until crossing the Red Sea. They believed and were baptized.

“And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” 1Cor. 10:2

[Zuriel]

**You keep going over minor matters and ignore the words of salvation, “Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. “**

If that is LITERALLY true, then once should LITERALLY be enough, instead of gobbling every time you set foot in your church house.

Does it wear off? Is it time release? Or has it become a way to keep folks coming to be indoctrinated?.... indoctrinated to the point of reverencing statues that don’t look like Mary or Jesus Christ; practices that resemble the behavior of pagans.

[ealgeone]

I have no problem with the quotes from John you posted.

But the questions still beg to be answered.

How do you know if you've lost your salvation?

How can you get it back?

No one can keep all of His commandments even if we just limit them to just the Ten.

If you break one commandment, does that cause you to lose your salvation?

[ADSUM]

It is spreading the Good News of God’s salvation.

It should be repeated for those who claim to be interested in their salvation. Perhaps it offends those whose minds are already set, but Jesus told us to spread the Good News to all nations.

I see the benefits of giving the Body and Blood of Jesus to Catholics, and I hope more people will be able to receive the Eucharist and the graces thereof.

Again many protestors do not understand the difference between idolatry and use of visual images to spread the Good News. They just use this to attack the Catholic Church when they have similar images in their own churches.

“People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20). “

“Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas. “

“The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.”

https://www.catholic.com/tract/do-catholics-worship-statues

It is one thing to falsely accuse and another to apologize for a false statement.

Your comment:”If that is LITERALLY true, then once should LITERALLY be enough, instead of gobbling every time you set foot in your church house.”

So how often do you Pray the Our Father?
“Give us this day our daily bread...”

Did you ever make the connection to the Body and Blood of Jesus that He gave us at the Last Supper?

God’s Peace be with you.

[ealgeone]

“Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate.

If this is all the Roman Catholic did with the idols of Mary they might have an argument.

The appeal to the pictures of one's mom or dad is a pathetic attempt of the Roman Catholic to justify the use of idols in Roman Catholicism. It's another of Tim Staple's attempt to justify idolatry in Roman Catholicism and it fails on so many levels.

However, where the Roman Catholic errs is the worshipping and serving these idols and worshipping/serving only God.

The Catholic bows to the image depicted in the idol, prays to the image depicted in the idol, etc. This is in contradiction to the Biblical injunction against making idols.

Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children.

Difference being no one is bowing down to the pictures in those Sunday school classes.

Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

And again no one is bowing down or praying to nativity scenes.

“People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

People who attempt to invoke this passage forget this was God who ordained this. The Israeli's did not bow down to nor serve or pray to the Cherubim as the Roman Catholic does with the idols of Mary.

“The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.

As demonstrated this is a false statement.

But it is understandable why the Roman Catholic does not discern the difference. They are not taught the full prohibition against idolatry.

A "traditional catechetical formula" of the first commandment reads as:

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

The text from Exodus 20:2-6 reads as follows:

3“You shall have no other gods before Me. 4“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

5“You shall not worship them or serve them;

for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. NASB

[metmom]

The woes to the Pharisees are more in line with condemnation of organized religion which crosses all the T’s and dots all the i’s, just like Catholicism does.,

The pharisee and tax collector is another good example of where self-righteous organized religion gets you.

Condemned.

[SisterK]

bump for later

[ADSUM]

“Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. “**

Your comment: “If that is LITERALLY true...”

While not well known there are many instances, including:

1) Lanciano, Italy 8th century a priest-monk celebrating Mass with recurrent doubts about the Real Presence of our Lord as he had just spoken the solemn words of Consecration when the host was suddenly changed into a circle of flesh, and the wine was transformed into visible blood.

Upon several examinations, the latest scientific one in 1970
determined that the flesh was identified as striated muscular tissue of the myocardium (heart wall), having no trace whatsoever of any agents for the preservation of flesh.

Both blood and flesh were determined to be human with type AB blood. While both had been conserved in receptacles and not hermetically sealed, they were not damaged. The Body and Blood of Jesus can be observed in the upper tabernacle at the Church of St Francis.

2)Brussels, Belgium 1370. On Good Friday April 4, 1370 some Jews assembled in their synagogue with 15 hosts. Laying on a table inflicted both verbal and physical abuse including the stabbing of the hosts with knives. Immediately, before the stunned eyes, blood flowed from the stab wounds. There is more to the story.

3)Stich, West Germany 1970 (2 miracles)Tuesday June 9, 1970 The priest after the Consecration noticed on the corporal next to the Chalice a small reddish spot that grew to the size of a coin and another stain where the chalice has been placed. The cloths were examined at a local clinic by 4 separate professionals and they determined that it was human blood and one indicated that it was from a man in agony.

On July 14, 1970 the same Swiss priest at the same Stich Chapel said Mass after checking that the altar cloths were absolutely clean. However after consecration, 4 spots appeared. One was the size of a priest’s host with a cross was visible on it.

4) Siena, Italy 1730 Consecrated Hosts stolen from the Basilica of St. Francis in year 1730. The Hosts have remained fresh and incorrupt for over 250 years.

There are many more incidents over the centuries and some very recently in Poland, Mexico and Argentina.

One shouldn’t need a miracle to believe the Words of Jesus as both literal and true.

[ADSUM]

Jesus didn’t condemn His Catholic Church, just the ones that speak all pious that don’t follow the will of God.

The teachings of the Catholic Church all came from Jesus and the Apostles. I realize that you have rejected His Church and teachings.

Good luck, you may need it.

[ealgeone]

The arguments with no substance are from Tim Staples. The ease with which they are refuted demonstrates such.

What I posted are facts.

Catholics do bow down to the idols of Mary.

Catholics do pray TO the image represented by the idol.

Catholics have to ignore the commandments against making idols and worshiping and serving them. The "traditional catechetical formula" of the First Commandment clearly illustrates that.

To get around all of this the Catholic had to invent different levels of adoration not found in the NT to justify their worship of Mary.

[ADSUM]

Again, Your anti-Catholic rambling and just your personal opinion.

[ealgeone]

1) Lanciano, Italy 8th century a priest-monk celebrating Mass with recurrent doubts about the Real Presence of our Lord as he had just spoken the solemn words of Consecration when the host was suddenly changed into a circle of flesh, and the wine was transformed into visible blood.

Upon several examinations, the latest scientific one in 1970 determined that the flesh was identified as striated muscular tissue of the myocardium (heart wall), having no trace whatsoever of any agents for the preservation of flesh.

A few more details:

One day, a certain monk was offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Although we do not know his identity, an ancient document described him as ...versed in the sciences of the world but ignorant in that of God. Apparently, he had been plagued by doubts about transubstantiation: he agonized over whether the bread and wine changed substantially into the Body and Blood of our Lord at the words of consecration, and whether our Lord was truly present in the Holy Eucharist.

This time, when the monk pronounced the words of consecration, the host was miraculously changed into flesh and the wine into blood. The monk was awestruck. Weeping joyously, he regained his composure. He called the congregation around the altar and said, O fortunate witnesses, to whom the Blessed God, to confound my unbelief, has wished to reveal Himself visible to our eyes! Come, brethren, and marvel at our God, so close to us. Behold the Flesh and Blood of our Most Beloved Christ. Those who witnessed the miracle soon spread the news throughout the surrounding area.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-miracle-of-lanciano.html

What this tells us is no one was able to discern the RCC claim of transubstantiation, that the elements actually changed to flesh and blood, prior to this event in the 8th century.

This is also reminiscent of the unbelieving Jews Jesus was addressing in John 6.

28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” 35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:28-40 NASB

The Roman Catholic continues to look for a sign.

If, as Roman Catholicism claims, the elements should actually taste like real flesh and blood.

That no one has recoiled at the taste of the elements we can conclude the RCC claim is false.

[ealgeone]

Again, Your anti-Catholic rambling and just your personal opinion.

Ok...here's a challenge to any Roman Catholic.

Throw away your "statues" of Mary.

Throw away your rosary.

Throw away your scapular and/or miraculous medal.

Pray only to God...not Mary...not the saints. Only to God. Do not cite the rosary or any other marian prayer.

Will you accept the challenge?

[ealgeone]

Again, Your anti-Catholic rambling and just your personal opinion.

Ok...here's a challenge to any Roman Catholic.

Throw away your "statues" of Mary.

Throw away your rosary.

Throw away your scapular and/or miraculous medal.

Pray only to God...not Mary...not the saints. Only to God. Do not cite the rosary or any other marian prayer.

Will you accept the challenge?