Brothers and Sisters?

OSV.com ^ | 05-01-17 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Salvation]

Brothers and Sisters?

Q. I know that the Church believes in Mary’s perpetual virginity, but what are we to make of the passages in the Gospel that refer to Jesus’ brothers and sisters?

Rose, via email

A. There are a number of places in the New Testament (see Mk 3:31-34; 6:3; Mt 12:46; 13:55; Lk 8:19-20; Jn 2:12; 7:3-10; Acts 1:14; and 1 Cor 9:5) where Jesus’ kinsfolk are mentioned using terms such as “brother” (adelphos), “sister” (adelphe) or “brethren” (adelphoi). But “brother” has a wider meaning both in the Scriptures and at the time they were written. It is not restricted to our literal meaning of a full brother or half-brother in the sense of sibling.

Even in the Old Testament “brother” had a wide range of meaning. In the Book of Genesis, for example, Lot is called Abraham’s brother (see 14:14), but his father was Haran — Abraham’s brother (Gn 11:26-28). So, Lot was actually a nephew of Abraham.

The term “brother” could also refer widely to friends or mere political allies (see 2 Sm 1:26; Am 1:9). Thus, in family relationships, “brother” could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended. We use words like kinsmen and cousins today, but the ancient Jews did not.

In fact, neither Hebrew nor Aramaic had a word meaning “cousin.” They used terms such as “brother,” “sister” or, more rarely, “kin” or “kinsfolk” (syngenis) — sometimes translated as “relative” in English.

James, for example, whom St. Paul called the “brother of the Lord” (Gal 1:19), is identified by Paul as an apostle and is usually understood to be James the Younger. But James the Younger is elsewhere identified as the son of Alphaeus (also called Clopas) and his wife, Mary (see Mt 10:3; Jn 19:25). Even if James the Greater were meant by St. Paul, it is clear that he is from the Zebedee family, and not a son of Mary or a brother of Jesus (in the strict modern sense) at all.

The early Church was aware of the references to Jesus’ brethren, but was not troubled by them, teaching and handing on the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity. This is because the terms referring to Jesus’ brethren were understood in the wider, more ancient sense. Widespread confusion about this began to occur after the 16th century with the rise of Protestantism and the loss of understanding the semantic nuances of ancient family terminology.

[metmom]

I note how you call the whole history of Christianity "extra-Biblical nonsense."

Nope, just the whole history of teachings of Catholicism that aren't found in Scripture.

[metmom]

I note also how you accept implicitly the proposition that God violated Mary and Joseph's marriage. I mean: by taking Mary and impregnating her despite that she had vowed her sexual/procreative capacities exclusively to Joseph. This is not just and honorable covenant behavior.

Then your issue is with GOD.

And He did NOT violate their covenant in having her conceive so you might as well give up on that argument. It does not work.

[Syncro]

JS (Joseph Smith) started Mormonism. Hard to separate the two.

Mormonism did not start Joseph Smith

It appears you did not address ealge's comment, but made up your own version of it to answer.

Staying on track will make for better debate.

[MHGinTN]

Pwerhaps you are confusing the institutional ‘church’ with the body of believers in Jesus as Savior? Jesus established His ‘CHURCH’ upon the meaning of what Peter, by urging of GOD’s Holy Spirit, proclaimed. That church has an unbroken lineage back to the day Jesus revealed the Gospel of Grace inherent in Peter’s Holy Spirit originated proclamation. Don’t let the institutionalized hook you on their use of ‘church’. There is ONLY One True Church, and that CHURCH will be Raptured out of this world someday soon. When it happens, The Vatican will probably have to see the news on CNN to know it has occurred.

[Iscool]

I note also how you accept implicitly the proposition that God violated Mary and Joseph's marriage. I mean: by taking Mary and impregnating her despite that she had vowed her sexual/procreative capacities exclusively to Joseph.

There were no sexual/procreative capacities involved...Mary did not have sex with a ghost...

[MHGinTN]

You would do well to read the following, but I doubt you will do so because you are so devoted to Romish deception:

[[

To: aMorePerfectUnion

Mary of the Bible certainly did have other children...

The Greeks weren't stupid. They knew what *brother* and *sister* were and had words for them that distinguished them from *cousin* or *relative*.

Nor was the Holy Spirit wrong when HE inspired Scripture and chose to use the words *brother* and *sister*.

He chose those words for a reason.

Psalm 69:8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons.

Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Matthew 12:46-47 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?”... “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

Acts 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

1 Corinthians 9:4-5 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?

Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

Strong's Concordance

http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

adelphos: a brother

Original Word: ἀδελφός, οῦ, ὁ

Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: adelphos

Phonetic Spelling: (ad-el-fos')

Short Definition: a brother

Definition: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.

Here is a link to the occurrences of the Greek word *adelphos*.

http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

The word *sister* (adelphe) in the Greek is the same.

http://biblehub.com/greek/79.htm

The word used is *brother* not *cousin*.

It can't mean a member of the same religious community in the context in which they occur, because then that would mean every man in Israel could be identified as Jesus' brother. So that would not identify Jesus as anyone in particular's brother.

It's not going to mean *brother in Christ* as that concept was not yet in place and the Jews, who knew Jesus as a Jew and knew His brothers as Jews, would not even begin to understand the new birth and what being in Christ meant.

They didn't even understand who JESUS was, much less being a *brother in Christ*.

The only definition left then, is to mean physical brother.

And it would not be *cousin*.

The word for *relative* that is used for Elizabeth is *suggenes*, not *adelphe*.

http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm

Strong's Concordance

suggenes: akin, a relative

Original Word: συγγενής, ές

Part of Speech: Adjective

Transliteration: suggenes

Phonetic Spelling: (soong-ghen-ace')

Short Definition: akin, a relative

Definition: akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman.

97 posted on 05/13/2017 7:17:49 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)

[ ]]

[metmom]

Mary of the Bible certainly did have other children...

[MHGinTN]

You wrote, "I don't agree with the idea at all that God COULD violate OR cuckold Joseph by choosing Mary to be the virgin birthgiver to the Messiah..."

You missed the point. No one is refuting that God chose MAry to be the mother of Jesus, without defrauding Joseph. The issue is whether God used an ovum from Mary for making the body of Jesus, since Mary was already betrothed to Joseph and all her genetic future was thus betrothed to Joseph. Mrs Don-o contends that God had to use an ovum from Mary, but Mrs Don-o now defends that notion on the grounds that neither Mary nor Joseph intended to consummate the marriage. Please, try to keep things straight.

[ealgeone]

If these were children from Joseph's prior marriage would not the Jews had referred to them as Joseph's children?

The Jews knew these were the brothers and sisters of Jesus and they were from Joseph and Mary.

The plain reading of the text is clear.

If you were to introduce someone as your brother/sister would people begin to ask...are they from another marriage of your dad's? Are these your cousins? etc.

The Catholic position denies the clear reading of the texts in question.

[Syncro]

“she was just a gestational container”

Please show where anyone except you has used that phrase.

For clarity and truth, thank you.

[MHGinTN]

perhaps you are twisting to make the Events fit the institutional narrative you've been taught: "Not to any siblings, because he had none." Ah, to fit the mythos of Mariology, you assert this dogma.

You will reject what I am to offer to you, but here it is: Jesus was the leader of the household because APPARENTLY Joseph had died by 33 AD. Since not one of His brothers showed up at the crucifixion --since they were afraid they too would be seized by the Sanhedrin and crucified likewise-- so without a second to convey leadership to, JESUS appointed John to that role over HIS mother, to care for her in the absence of HIS brothers responsibilities.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"If you were to introduce someone as your brother/sister would people begin to ask...are they from another marriage of your dad's? Are these your cousins? etc. "

Why, yes, in fact. Because I speak 21st century American vernacular English, which freely makes distinctions between brothers, step-brothers, half-brothers, cousins, uncles, second cousins, allies, in-laws and outlaws.

With the ancient and classical Semitic languages, and the Koine Greek when translating the Semitic languages, the usage is quite different.

I know you did not miss that. We have been discussing this very point for months.

[MHGinTN]

You offered, “Mary and Joseph had normal sexual relations and Jesus had brothers by blood ...” No, the brothers would be ‘blood brothers’ only if He too derived HIS blood from Joseph and Mary. It is believed in Christianity that JESUS was not a blood descendant of Joseph, and not likely from AMry either. Once implantation in the uterine wall happens, the blood of the gestating child remains separate from the mother’s until the rupture of the amniotic sac at birthing. The newly conceived child builds all of its own structures for life int he water world of the amniotic sac and the body for life in the air world. The mother makes none of the tissues of the gestating child.

[ealgeone]

Why, yes, in fact. Because I speak 21st century American vernacular English, which freely makes distinctions between brothers, step-brothers, half-brothers, cousins, uncles, second cousins, allies, in-laws and outlaws.

With the ancient and classical Semitic languages, and the Koine Greek when translating the Semitic languages, the usage is quite different.

I know you did not miss that. We have been discussing this very point for months.

Yes we have...and you seem to continue to ignore the postings where those differences have been illustrated.

[metmom]

OK, let's talk Greek, since you apparently missed it the numerous other times I posted this information.

Strong's Concordance

http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

adelphos: a brother

Original Word: ἀδελφός, οῦ, ὁ

Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: adelphos

Phonetic Spelling: (ad-el-fos')

Short Definition: a brother

Definition: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.

Here is a link to the occurrences of the Greek word *adelphos*.

http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

The word *sister* (adelphe) in the Greek is the same.

http://biblehub.com/greek/79.htm

The word used is *brother* not *cousin*.

It can't mean a member of the same religious community in the context in which they occur, because then that would mean every man in Israel could be identified as Jesus' brother. So that would not identify Jesus as anyone in particular's brother.

It's not going to mean *brother in Christ* as that concept was not yet in place and the Jews, who knew Jesus as a Jew and knew His brothers as Jews, would not even begin to understand the new birth and what being in Christ meant.

They didn't even understand who JESUS was, much less being a *brother in Christ*.

The only definition left then, is to mean physical brother.

And it would not be *cousin*.

The word for *relative* that is used for Elizabeth is *suggenes*, not *adelphe*.

http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm

Strong's Concordance

suggenes: akin, a relative

Original Word: συγγενής, ές

Part of Speech: Adjective

Transliteration: suggenes

Phonetic Spelling: (soong-ghen-ace')

Short Definition: akin, a relative

Definition: akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman.

[MHGinTN]

You spittle out, "What it proves is that the entire Church was convinced of Mary's perpetual virginity, and the suggestion that she had other children from her womb got no traction with them."

Does GOD's Word name brothers of Jesus? Yes it does. But to support your Mariology mythos you reject that FACT and twist the Word of GOD to say what the father of your 'other religion' wants you to believe.

[MHGinTN]

Eggs Ackley, Bro! And there are several dogmas in that religion of catholiciism which must twist The Word of GOD to support their man-made dogmas.

[MHGinTN]

And yet again, read the following:

[[

To: aMorePerfectUnion

Mary of the Bible certainly did have other children...

The Greeks weren't stupid. They knew what *brother* and *sister* were and had words for them that distinguished them from *cousin* or *relative*.

Nor was the Holy Spirit wrong when HE inspired Scripture and chose to use the words *brother* and *sister*.

He chose those words for a reason.

Psalm 69:8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons.

Matthew 1:24-25 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Matthew 12:46-47 While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”

Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

Mark 6:2-3 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?”... “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

John 2:12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

Acts 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

1 Corinthians 9:4-5 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?

Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.

Strong's Concordance

http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

adelphos: a brother

Original Word: ἀδελφός, οῦ, ὁ

Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: adelphos

Phonetic Spelling: (ad-el-fos')

Short Definition: a brother

Definition: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.

Here is a link to the occurrences of the Greek word *adelphos*.

http://biblehub.com/greek/80.htm

The word *sister* (adelphe) in the Greek is the same.

http://biblehub.com/greek/79.htm

The word used is *brother* not *cousin*.

It can't mean a member of the same religious community in the context in which they occur, because then that would mean every man in Israel could be identified as Jesus' brother. So that would not identify Jesus as anyone in particular's brother.

It's not going to mean *brother in Christ* as that concept was not yet in place and the Jews, who knew Jesus as a Jew and knew His brothers as Jews, would not even begin to understand the new birth and what being in Christ meant.

They didn't even understand who JESUS was, much less being a *brother in Christ*.

The only definition left then, is to mean physical brother.

And it would not be *cousin*.

The word for *relative* that is used for Elizabeth is *suggenes*, not *adelphe*.

http://biblehub.com/greek/4773.htm

Strong's Concordance

suggenes: akin, a relative

Original Word: συγγενής, ές

Part of Speech: Adjective

Transliteration: suggenes

Phonetic Spelling: (soong-ghen-ace')

Short Definition: akin, a relative

Definition: akin to, related; subst: fellow countryman, kinsman.

97 posted on 05/13/2017 7:17:49 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)

[ ]]

That you evidence you are unable to comprehend the above, it appears you are educated beyond your mental capacity.

[metmom]

Mary of the Bible certainly did have other children...

[ealgeone]

This internet thingy must be hated by Roman Catholics. So much information is now available which counters their false teachings.

[MHGinTN]

Sadly, they do not comprehend that which is spiritual, so they do not see the refutations and continue to follow satan’s plan. ‘work work work, be worthy of someday obtaining’ JESUS said those born again receive ETERNAL LIFE right then. But to a Catholic mind, eternal is like a Yo-yo.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"You spittle out..."

--- you wrote.

MHGinTN. Please. This is not dialogue. This does not invite rational response.

Granted, there is a verse where Scripture defines what is meant by Jesus' brethren, as in, specifically, Mary's other offspring. It's meant, I think, to include even you and me.

Tagline.